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bler
Jan 18, 2007, 9:20 PM
Post #1 of 20
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Registered: Apr 22, 2004
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I'm sure that many people rant/rave about this great web-based ticking/grading system, but has anyone taken a realistic look at the effect on climbing as a whole.
On one hand, it is an awesome program. It is great for keeping a tick list of climbs and has graphs to show where your at and your progression. This is a great tool for people to use to judge THEIR OWN PERSONAL PROGRESSION.
On the other hand, it creates a competition community of people trying to get more 'points' by completing harder climbs. This is a good thing, as it promotes progressive climbing and people to actually make progression and not stay stagnant climbing their 5.5's and 5.6's, it gives them some motivation to perform harder climbs.
Yet, it does have a tendancy for inflation. Grades ARE subjective, yes. But intentional subjection now has a major tendancy. People reason higher grades for any various number of reasons; 'it feels like a v5, but if a short person got on this it would be a v8, so I'll rate it v8 and get a lot of 8a points. No, I don't want to get into a grade discussion, grades are subjective, but I can see in the future that with new development we will see inflating grades on purpose for 8a.nu ranking. This would be espically apparent in the up-and-coming younger kids who may not care for such things as a correct and true grading system.
Just my, $0.02
-the Blur
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sidepull
Jan 18, 2007, 9:36 PM
Post #2 of 20
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Registered: Sep 11, 2001
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I think, on the whole, 8a is very good for climbing. Here's why:
1) Because 8a is driven by climbers signing up and logging ascents it provides much quicker "news" regarding hard sends.
2) The important thing about 8a is not the scoring system. The scoring system might provide a psychological motivation for logging in, it might produce something of a free market for climbers that increases competition and thereby improves performance. It might also lead to lying (which has undoubtedly happened). But this same competition also leads people to keep one another in check and allows a much more wholistic view of grades and comparisons across areas.
3) 8a is cool internet innovation that has stayed. I loved smackmag and climbxmedia but they died. 8a stays because it is simple and builds on the networking capabilities of the internet.
4) 8a is international and seeks to integrate a broader user base.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think 8a.nu is the best thing to ever happen to climbing, but overall I think it's a benefit to climbers.
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kriso9tails
Jan 19, 2007, 3:13 AM
Post #3 of 20
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Registered: Jul 1, 2001
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8a is lame. (read: my score isn't that high).
I like it... it's funny the things that shouldn't make much of a difference, but do push people to climb harder.
I tend to be stiff with grades, so for at least three of the problems I have on my card where I put 7a half the people who have recorded that same line put the same and half put 7a+, if I put 7a+ half the people recording that ascent put 7b.
I only have one problem on there that is total BS --there's no way I sent V9 in three tries, I'm just not that strong-- but I hate downgrading other people's problems once they're established.
Still, I've been curious lately just how much impact things like 8a have had on grading, especially where I climb (Niagara Glen).
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nevenneve
Jan 19, 2007, 3:30 AM
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Registered: Jul 15, 2004
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About as much as exposing yourself in the reflection of a tea kettle on an ebay auction. Gives a distorted view by putting the deceitful prick in the limelight.
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kriso9tails
Jan 19, 2007, 3:35 AM
Post #5 of 20
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nevenneve wrote: About as much as exposing yourself in the reflection of a tea kettle on an ebay auction. Gives a distorted view by putting the deceitful prick in the limelight.
So what you're saying is... your score is even lower than mine.
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miavzero
Jan 19, 2007, 5:09 AM
Post #6 of 20
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Registered: Oct 8, 2005
Posts: 624
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the idea of 8a.nu seems really lame, but like trash tv, I keep checking up on it.
i still will never have a scorecard.
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nevenneve
Jan 20, 2007, 1:38 AM
Post #7 of 20
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kriso9tails wrote: nevenneve wrote: About as much as exposing yourself in the reflection of a tea kettle on an ebay auction. Gives a distorted view by putting the deceitful prick in the limelight. So what you're saying is... your score is even lower than mine.
It is now just a place to catch out the dishonest.
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Jan 20, 2007, 5:12 AM
Post #8 of 20
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Registered: Jul 6, 2005
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nevenneve wrote: It is now just a place to catch out the dishonest.
Actually, I let the rock take care of that. You can log all the virtual v12s you want, but if you canīt repeat one set by Roughling or Graham, well, youīve got bigger (and much much smaller) issues than just lying about how hard you climb on a website.
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fracture
Jan 20, 2007, 7:58 AM
Post #9 of 20
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
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8a is a pretty crappy site. It renders crappy, and the unnecessary forums stuff is also really annoying (and messes up keyboard-based browsing in firefox in a lot of situations). And it is completely unusable in all text-based browsers. Not to mention the UI design.
So,
In reply to: On one hand, it is an awesome program.
No.
As far as the ranking? I think it's pretty dumb. As a scoring system, it's pretty horribly designed: they give far too many points for onsights, and have hilarious bonus points for things like first ascents (?) and trad gear (??). And unbelievably, they seem to think it makes sense for bouldering and sport climbing to be scored seperately. (Not to mention their silly little rules about eliminates, freepoints, downclimbs, and cheater stones.) Perhaps worst of all, you are supposed to be able to register repeated ascents to "bump" the route back to the front of your 12-month queue, but of course half of the people on the board want to have the thing say the date that they first did it, so they never bump them. Others tend to wire things and do them frequently, in which case keeping track of all your repeats is just a pain in the ass and not fun. Basically, outside of the top 10 or so, the ranking is completely meaningless because people aren't even playing by the same rules.
But, aside from the bad designs of the competition aspect of it (which is silly to get worked up over---I've seen far worse designed scoring systems for climbing competitions), it is very nifty for tracking your (or other people's) progress.
(This post was edited by fracture on Jan 20, 2007, 10:44 AM)
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nevenneve
Jan 20, 2007, 8:55 AM
Post #10 of 20
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Registered: Jul 15, 2004
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Not filling out the scorecard but using there database to keep track of what you've climbed is quite popular. Especially if you are a laptop dirtbag.
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organic
Jan 20, 2007, 2:43 PM
Post #11 of 20
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Registered: Jul 16, 2003
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I think it is easy to be caught up in the hubaloo of rating something harder than it is when trying to earn points on 8a and really hard to downgrade. I started a scorecard last year and really was motivated but it ended up that I went out climbing to bag a problem to put on my scorecard and I did not just climb. Given the climbing I have done in the past months is some of the hardest climbing I have ever done, I did not like the attitude it gave me. so I gave up updating my scorecard.
If you keep track of 8a you can see recently how everyone has been going to Heuco and climbing their hardest boulder problem. Seems kind of strange to me. People who have never climbed 7c+ climbing 8a+. The grade inflation is occuring but I think it is up to up and me and everyone else to keep it in check. Websites are being used as guidebooks nowadays especially the route database here on rockclimbing.com. Rate something what you feel it is even if everyone else is rating it higher. HELP STOP GRADE INFLATION!
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miademus
Jan 23, 2007, 12:39 PM
Post #12 of 20
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Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 511
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aww it's not bad....good somehow, but not nessesary...
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dbrayack
Jan 23, 2007, 1:02 PM
Post #13 of 20
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 1260
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People lie on 8a all the time...and inflate grades so they look better...I don't see how anything good comes from this?
(I do have an 8a card though ;) )
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baigot
Jan 23, 2007, 1:05 PM
Post #14 of 20
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Registered: Apr 20, 2003
Posts: 87
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Man! i donīt understand why you guys need competition to improve your climbing. i thought climbing was a espiritual and personal experience. Doing creative climbs improve you better than competition.
Reading this kind of threads assure me the idea that climbing is going down: Near a media experience, far from a way of life, i mean better a photo in Climbing Magazine than completing a good route...
This kind of comments put clearly the idea that is not that important the climb than the number of the rank of it...
is a shame,,,
my $0.02
v.
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miademus
Jan 23, 2007, 1:17 PM
Post #15 of 20
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Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 511
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yeah you're right...maybe not all of it but some.
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j_ung
Jan 23, 2007, 1:52 PM
Post #16 of 20
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
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I don't think 8a.nu has had any effect at all, positive or negative, on my climbing.
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br
Jan 23, 2007, 1:53 PM
Post #17 of 20
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Registered: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 82
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There needs to be a website for climbers that have responsibilities like families and such where they get a certain nimber of points for even bringing up climbing to their spouse. More points for dragging your kids along with you while you climb. Then theirs the grand prize where you get the most points possible for actually getting a complete hall pass for the weekend. Then total and complete god like status for a week road trip.
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fracture
Jan 23, 2007, 2:50 PM
Post #18 of 20
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
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baigot wrote: Man! i donīt understand why you guys need competition to improve your climbing. i thought climbing was a espiritual and personal experience.
Well, you were just a little confused. I know it is popular to pretend otherwise, but climbing is actually just a silly game---not a lifestyle or a "spiritual experience". Get over it.
(This post was edited by fracture on Jan 23, 2007, 2:51 PM)
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dbrayack
Jan 23, 2007, 4:24 PM
Post #19 of 20
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 1260
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Oh come on Jay, you know you have an 8a card...you're always asking me to sign off your 13+ onsights (when you do them 3rd or 4th go)
-Danno
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ultraloveninja
Jan 23, 2007, 6:28 PM
Post #20 of 20
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Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 49
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to me, the site looks like a waste of time.
i did find the info on the grigri informative, however, i'd rather use a SUM.
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