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benway
Sep 16, 2002, 4:26 PM
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I'm still enough of a newbie to be stuck in the TR world but I want to try my hand at leading some easy sport climbs soon.
My question is, suppose you can't make it to the top of the climb, and you have to lower off from the last bolt you made it to. Now you don't want to leave one of those shiny new quickdraws behind, right? Is there anyway to throw an old biner on the bolt, and lower off that? I guess this presupposed the bolt is in a sport where you can hang for awhile while doing this. Is this an unacceptable risk because if you fall you wont be caught until the next bolt down? (Obviously if you're stuck at the #2 bolt, you probably hit the deck, but let's say you're far enough up that's not an issue).
I'm planning on following common sense and much related advice and start with routes 2 grades below what I TR, but I'd feel better know the "what if" even if it's not likely to happen.
Thanks for any and all input
Mike "the newbie"
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texasclimber
Sep 16, 2002, 4:40 PM
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Well, I'd like to start by saying...just don't let that happen. Second, I wouldn't leave any gear on the wall. What I would recomend is that you down climb. Remove your draw and slowly make your way back to the ground with ALL you gear. Thw worst thing that could happen (assuming that all gear/bolts/rope dont break) is that you take a big lead fall. I have had to do this a couple times and it sucks; but, you get to keep all your gear!
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stewbabby
Sep 16, 2002, 4:48 PM
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As rarely as I sport climb, I still carry a couple of quick links on my rack. They are inexpensive and strong enough to lower off of. just put one on the bolt, put the rope through it, shut the skrew gate, take off the draw and lower away.
stewart
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transse
Sep 16, 2002, 4:48 PM
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Read John Longs, "Advanced Rock Climbing". Especially the chapter on the sling retrieval technique. I have used this before and it has worked. Too complicated to describe. Make sure you understand it fully before trying it.
Jake
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palisades_rockjock
Sep 16, 2002, 4:54 PM
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I agree with stewart, I would carry a couple of quick links. You can also set up a TR from the shuts (assuming that you can hike to the top of the route). I hope this doesn't sound to greater than thou, but I would not try to sport climb until you are a strong 5.10 climber on TR.
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climbincajun
Sep 16, 2002, 5:07 PM
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downclimbing is an imperative skill that can get you out of many jams. develop it.
secondly, and as a last resort, carry a quicklink or bail biner if you have any doubt.
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tradguy
Sep 16, 2002, 5:20 PM
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I'm not a big sport climber (obvious by my login name ), but I would consider it irresponsible to put quicklinks on bolts (other than the rap anchors, that is). The problem is that people who climb the route after you now have this quicklink in the way when they are trying to clip. Depending on the difficulty of the route and location of the crux (probably close, since you couldn't get any further), this could really be annoying. Also, weighting quicklinks can cause the threads to malform, making them more difficult to open, plus they will rust in time, so your "cheap bail piece" could become permanent, or at least a huge hassle for someone to rap down and chop off with a hacksaw.
If you must leave gear partway up a sport climb, please leave biners that can be easily removed.
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pfc-monty
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Sep 16, 2002, 7:13 PM
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Clip into the bolt using a daisy chain w/ a locking biner that is attached to your belay loop, run a short sewn sling through the bolt then untie your figure 8. run the end of your rope through the sling and keep pulling up rope until both ends into hit the ground. Then attach a repel/belay device to both sides of the rope suck up your slack and unclip your locker. Then just repel.
edit for spelling
[ This Message was edited by: pfc-monty on 2002-09-16 12:14 ]
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coreyr
Sep 16, 2002, 7:16 PM
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I have to agree with Tradguy!!
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thrillseeker05
Sep 16, 2002, 7:32 PM
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the suggestions already made are good, and i just wanted to add that if you can, go with someone who CAN finish the route. try it out get as high as you can and lower from your last draw.. then let your partner take it from there. that way you can always get your stuff. just in case take a bail biner. they are easy to remove and not expensive. even if your partner is not much advanced then you, between the two of you, you should be able to make the climb.
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vikasshah
Sep 16, 2002, 7:52 PM
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RE the technique posted by pfc-monty. That's fine, but please PLEASE note that you must RAPPEL down. Do not lower off with the rope through the sling; the friction from nylon on nylon will probably melt the sling, leaving your rope being held up by... nothing.
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texasclimber
Sep 16, 2002, 7:55 PM
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"...I would not try to sport [lead] climb until you are a strong 5.10 climber on TR."
This is crap. When I started climbing I could just barely do 5.8s...but I lead the 2nd time I EVER rock climbed. The key is go with someone who can finnish the route if you can't! I would suggest learning to lead whenever you feel up to the challenge!
CLIMB HARD
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benway
Sep 16, 2002, 8:59 PM
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Thanks for all the great advice.
I actually looked at J.Long's Advanced Rock Climbing book last weekend; I definitely pick it up soon.
I was going to ask also about the etiquette of leaving gear up there; I wouldn't do that unless in dire circumstances.
I'll take everyone's advice here (as elsewhere)and climb with someone better, and climb easier stuff, but if I'm ever looking up at 5.9 sport climb and my belayer is less experienced and I KNOW I can do, I want to do it with the confidence of knowing I have an out. I tend to be a very cautious person and have not yet foolishly gotten in over my head on any climb. It's just as a pain-in-the-butt engineer type I have to have answers to EVERYTHING before I proceed.
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phlyfisher
Sep 16, 2002, 9:02 PM
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Make a stick clip and you'll never have to leave gear on a sport route. You can just aid up to the anchors.
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therelic
Sep 16, 2002, 9:16 PM
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Forget the quick links, I highly recommend you bail off a route with a new high quality locking carabineer, especially those nice big ones by Petzl. At one of our local climbs my partner and I have collected so many locking bail-biners in the past year I don’t think either one of us will ever have to buy one again.
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wlderdude
Sep 16, 2002, 9:49 PM
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Just consider the bail biner a cost of climbing. Climbing is just an expensive sport.
Wait until you get into trad and end up leaving pro!
The only tricky part is if you are weighing the top biner in the bolt and need to get the lower biner out.
Also make shure the bolt will not break or pull out since it will be your only anchor (scarry). No bouncing!
Of course, slings can be rappelled off of if you trust the hanger not to cut it.
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jt512
Sep 16, 2002, 10:23 PM
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So far, the answers are 80% wrong. Welcome to rockclimbing.com.
Most sport climbers bail off a single biner. The technique usually used is to first clip directly into the quickdraw on the bolt. Clip a cheap, old, but undamaged "bail" biner into the bolt. Clip your rope into the bail biner. Have your partner take your weight and unclip the draw from the bolt. Clean the lower draws as your partner smoothly lowers you (your life depends on a single bolt with a single non-locking biner). An added measure of safety can be attained by putting a second bail biner on the next bolt down.
In many sport climbing areas it is considered unacceptable to leave a quicklink on a bolt, as they can be difficult to remove. In all sport climbing areas (at least among those I've visited) it is considered unacceptable to leave webbing on a bolt! If you prefer rapping to being lowered rap off of a bail biner, or use The Texas Rope Trick to retrieve the sling. This may be the technique in Advanced Rock Climbing that someone alluded to. I've posted detailed instructions on how to rig it here.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-16 15:28 ]
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sully
Sep 16, 2002, 10:47 PM
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The Bail Biner option is the one that I go for. Fortunately enough, the places that I sport climb regularly have easy access to the top so I can hike up and throw a rap line to get the left over gear.
One word of advice. If you find someone else's bail gear, DONT USE IT!! More often than not, people are going to leave their worst gear. Besides, you have no idea of the history of the gear. I have a small collection of gear that I have found at the crag...the only thing that it is ever used for is when I need to clip off a piton that I am hammering on (no need to hammer your own good gear)
Cheers, and good luck on your firt sport climb!!
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roughster
Sep 16, 2002, 11:06 PM
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Quote: So far, the answers are 80% wrong. Welcome to rockclimbing.com.
Easy there Jay. I think saying that 80% of the above are "wrong" may be a bit harsh.
Some may not be the most appropriate but all the ones I read would get you safely back down to the ground.
I have back lead many routes for various reasons. There is nothing wrong with down climbing.
Also, using a quicklink is not exactly the best bet, but I would rather have someone do that then directly thread a single hanger. I actually saw someone start to do this at Auburn. I tossed him up one of my old biners, and had him lower off of that, which I then did the route after him to get my biner back.
Safety takes precedence over everything else. I am not promoting a lot of the other ways listed as the bail biner is the prefered method, but your tone was a little harsh.
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jt512
Sep 16, 2002, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
If you find someone else's bail gear, DONT USE IT!! More often than not, people are going to leave their worst gear.
If you're not going to use it, send it to me. I'll add it to my bail biner collection. The only bail biners I've ever bailed off of are bail biners I've bootied off of routes. Inspect the biner and if the gate operates smoothly and closes completely and there is no visible damaged, use the biner, at least as a bail biner. It got the last guy down. It's not a timebomb waiting to suddenly fail.
-Jay
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beyond_gravity
Sep 16, 2002, 11:20 PM
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Assuming the bolt is a glue in (rounded) you can use this technique...
So your probably pumped...that means that your going to want to HANG there in your harness. If you can hang on your arms, suck it up and finish the route!
Ok, So your weighting the rope that is clipped into the bolt with a quickdraw... Take a look at the bolt...does it look good? are you willing to trust your life to a single piece of pro? If yes, take out a loop sling (sewn or tied) and thread it through the bolt. Clip a locking biner to BOTH ENDS of the sling, and clip into it. Now you must summon on energy!
Get back on the wall and unweight the bolt, now take out the quickdraw and SLOWLY Move down and hang off of your sling. Before you untie, pull up a few arm lengths of rope and tie an overhand knot and clip it to your belay loop so you don’t drop the rope (and for backup incase the bolt your on fails.) After that untie from your harness.
Thread the rope through the bolt and tie back in. Now untie the Overhand knot you clipped to your belay loop. Double check that everything is in order...keep thinking!
Now, make sure your belayer is ready. Look at your system again, once you unclip from your sling are you going to be ok? Now unweight your sling and unclip it from your harness, yell "TAKE!" and before you weight the rope, check again!
Now your hanging on your rope, even with the rope on top of the sling it will still pull out no problem...clean everything and lower down. Remember to clean the rest of the draws on the way down!
Now some people will argue that it’s bad ethics to lower off anything but your own gear. Lets remember that a bolt is not an anchor, the bolt will see very few “lowers” in it’s lifetime, not enough to damage it dangerously.
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jt512
Sep 16, 2002, 11:24 PM
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Quote:I have back lead many routes for various reasons. There is nothing wrong with down climbing.
How often is this realistically going to be an option on a sport route that you can't finish. Usually when you can't finish a sport route it is because it is too hard for you. How often would you be able to safely downlead such a route?
-Jay
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toobigtoclimb
Sep 16, 2002, 11:38 PM
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Definitely go for the "bail biner." When sport climbing, I always have one on the bacl loop of my harness just in case.
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jt512
Sep 16, 2002, 11:49 PM
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Well, after b_g's post, I think we're up to 85%.
People, do not run your rope directly through the bolt to lower or rap. You will damage your rope.
-Jay
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roughster
Sep 17, 2002, 12:40 AM
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Jay,
B_G is correct. He is talking about HUGE eye glue in bolts. They actually have a larger diameter than a carabiner. If you have climbed at many Beach Front locations or areas with High Humidity you would be familair with them. Some places off of the top of my head that have them: (Jackson Falls, Ill), (Mickey's Beach, CA), (Sunny and Steep, Redrocks). Some routes at (Promintory and Foosteps, CA) This is what they look like: (notice the stamped rating)
While it will eventually wear down a bolt, the chances of many people lowering off of the same single bolt over the entire length of a climb is small.
Just because you have not seen them in SoCal (as I am well aware they are not used because of the arid environment and predomintaely granitic nature of rock), do not assume they would not be usuable for that purpose.
As for downclimbing? I have done it several times. One specific time comes to mind while climbing in Rifle. I got the anchors (Moroni Blows 12b) only to find them so rusted and corroded I didn't feel like running my rope over a cheese grater. I down climbed the whole route resting on each before I pulled the draw off an down climbed. It was not a big deal. Another route was Hot Tuna 5.11d at Mickey's Beach. It used to have SEVERELY rusted open shuts. Same thing, I elected to downclimb.
Since we are talking about sport routes, down climbing even 1 move usually puts you into the 3-4 foot fall range. No big deal if you can't make it, just drop off, tram back up to the bolt to get by the hard parts. If you made it up it, it stands to reason you can make it down with gravity's help.
The 1st bolt is only problem bolt, but with a flat base and/or a good spot, you'll be fine.
Don't be so closed minded Jay, there are other valid opinions other than your own.
EDIT: To include picture for illustration.
[ This Message was edited by: roughster on 2002-09-16 18:06 ]
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