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csproul
Jan 19, 2007, 1:31 PM
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I have a question for those who have some experience with climbing Denali/Foraker...I have a zero degree down bag and a light (40 degree?) down liner that zips into it. In theory this should rate the bag to about -25 degrees. I have never used it in any situation that is that cold. I know that bags in the -30 to -40 range are common on higher Alaska peaks, but have any of you tried using a bag/bag liner combo in conditions that cold?
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big_red
Jan 19, 2007, 2:55 PM
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Buy a good -40 bag... if things get bad you'll be glad you did.
I've used both systems up here a lot in midwinter climbs and never had as much success with layering bags like that. One problem you have is that there is no way to accurately judge what you approx. temp rating is(best you can do is compare the total oz's of down you are using to warmer bags). And I hope your 0F bag has a good shell material on it. You may be spending plenty of time in a snow cave on eithe rof those mountains.
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xtrmecat
Jan 19, 2007, 3:51 PM
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Big Red is right. Three winters ago I added to my zero degree bag with a down summer bag,i think 20 degree, and spent two of the worst winter nights out I have ever had. Went and bought a minus 20 bag and did the same trip the next year in identical conditions and fared well. Swore I would not ever do something like that again.
Bob
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kixx
Jan 20, 2007, 1:36 AM
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Agree with everything thing here.
A bag doubled up like that puts too much nylon in the system and limits breathability and effective insulation - I've had some miserable nights trying this system.
Also, as mentioned, a snow cave is often your best bet in the Alaska range and your bag needs to handle it. Get one with an Epic shell (the best water resistant and breathable nylon shell). Feathered Friends offers some good ones.
Better yet, learn to use your insulating jacket and pants to boost the ability of your bag to really dip down there in the cold temps. To do this you need one that lofts well and has plenty of room... not the case with two bags doubled up.
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go_dyno
Jan 20, 2007, 6:41 AM
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Western Mountaineering bags rule! I have the 0 degree and -30 both w/ Gore Dryloft shells!
What do y'all think of carrying a lightweight goretex bivy sack to add a little warmth, but mostly to keep bag a little drier in snow cave?
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big_red
Jan 20, 2007, 5:58 PM
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If you have a good bag, I'd say no to the bivy sack.
Here's why: that bivy sack basically creates a single wall tent around your sleeping bag. The waterproof-breathable layer on your bag does an awesome job of sealing your body heat in and breathes as good as you can ever hope due to the warm vapor in the down. If you add another waterproof-breathable layer on top of that, the efficiency of the system goes down a lot because you have no way of maintaining the proper temperature between your bag and the bivy sack. If it's cold out, the vapor coming out of your bag condenses in between your bag and the bivy. A good bag doesn't leak enough body heat to maintain vapor between itself and another layer. So you now have a bag that is surrounded by condensation and/or frost in a very close proximity and no way of getting rid of it. Eventually, it WILL saturate you bag.
The best use for a light bivy in a snow cave (I use the Mtn.Hardwear Conduit Bivy) is as a barrier between your bag and the ground just to eliminate the moisture in contact with your bag. Most of the time I just lay it open on the ground and put my bag on top of it.
But that's just my $.02
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go_dyno
Jan 21, 2007, 2:46 AM
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Bigred you are right on the money now that I think about it not at 4am.
I just fill my tent with moisture and get worried that someday I'm gonna get stuck for a week in a tent or cave and have a frozen solid bag. I was a tester for paclite goretex and one thing I can say is that goretex breathes best when an osmotic situation exists very dry air on the outside and moist inside and the dry air helps pull the moist air thru the goretex (bivy sack would impeded this by creating a moist warm equillibrium on both sides of the driloft). I tested the paclite for Goretex in the jungle and its like wearing rubber and wet on both sides! Goretex definitely shines in dry cold weather.
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drzaous
Jan 21, 2007, 5:57 AM
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Up here, all bets are off with sleepign bags. Some people do the " your wearing enough clothes to boost your 0/-20 bag" system, and others go with the "Add a pound and be more comfortable with a -40" system. It's really up to you, BUT, for Alaska, the least i would go for is a -20. I have a 20, a 0, and a -40. needless to say the 0 is only used in snow caves and spring/fall trips, but for winter, and bigger moutains, a -40 is what i'm all about. Also, the idea about putting a bivy sack unde rit in a snow cave is a good idea. I have had good luck with my black diamond epic winter bivy, it breathes really well and sheds frost right off. Everyone I knwo who has been on Denali/Foraker has said, go for the warmest bag you can get. Repeated stuffing, packing, sleeping, etc will wear down the best of bags, might as well get one with soem extra 'ummphhh' for when the shit goes down.
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jhump
Jan 21, 2007, 7:15 AM
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I've been to Denali in June with -40. Then I went back in Late April/Early May with 0. I was warmer in the 0. Why? It dried faster with its wispy thin shell and 900 down. It was perfect and would be my choice again. I did not sleep any higher than 14K, but then again why would anyone do that to himself?
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angusmacginny
Jan 21, 2007, 9:12 PM
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jhump wrote: I've been to Denali in June with -40. Then I went back in Late April/Early May with 0. I was warmer in the 0. Why? It dried faster with its wispy thin shell and 900 down. It was perfect and would be my choice again. I did not sleep any higher than 14K, but then again why would anyone do that to himself?
Thats great, but it is also some piss poor advice to be giving other people. You might be ok with what you have, but you might not. Alaska is REALLY fucking cold. If you are in the wrong weather and end up watching your thermometer freeze at -40 and not thaw for 4 days then you will pretty much be fucked. Dont go cheap on you sleeping bag or you feet in Alaska.
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drzaous
Jan 22, 2007, 8:57 AM
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I COMPLETELY AGREE...
Also, to add, most sleeping bag temperature ratings are crap. Go for the highest quality down (900) and the heaviest fill you can find. The extra couple pounds of sleeping bag, as long as you take good care of it every night will be well worth it.
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big_red
Jan 22, 2007, 10:27 AM
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WORD...bring the big guns...you never know just how bad it's gonna get. And yes, the temp rating are just a general guide (or not even close in some...Dark Star anyone?)
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jhump
Jan 22, 2007, 4:51 PM
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Piss poor? Just the sum of my knowledge on the matter. Around 40 days on the high one has taught me this. The original poster asked for advice from people who have been there. He is considering heavy bag + liner/bivy. That is a recipe for a wet and cold ride. Lighter ends up being warmer, because it dries and breathes so much better.
At a camp, I pitch a tent and dig a cave/igloo. I usually sleep in the cave. Lounging in the tent on sunny days when Im not climbing. It is very warm in a tent- May 1st 2005, @14K my tent temperature rose to 106F in the afternoon.
With discipline, a O deg bag is more than warm enough. Keep in mind, you also have to carry it around. Mine is snug fitting, half zippered, 2.5lbs. Lightest shell you can get- like the NorthFace Momentum (mine), or the Marmot Lithium?
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big_red
Jan 22, 2007, 8:33 PM
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Jhump... let em start out by saying that I agree with you...and on most of my trips up here I do take my Marmot Lithium(even midwinter). But I would say that I have my personal system pretty dialed and know all the gear very well.
BUT..there are some other things people who don't have their system dialed need to take into account. Climbing the West Buttress? Then bring your GI Joe sleeping bag... if things get uber ugly, the city of denali will be there to help. But I have donw a few routes on Denali and I did bring my -40 when I did the Muldrow. Foraker? Sure as hell bring it. You have to include the "in case shit" factor. If you are injured, lose half of your gear when the tent blows away, or run into other people that have had this happen to them, or let's just say you aren't the greatest alpine legend and you pitch a tent in a prime venturi location (yes I have done this). In those cicumstances you will be glad to have your -40 bag...or even -20 bag...
With discipline, you can wait for your bag to dry before you continue going up further.
*unrelated side question*... Jhump-you like your winter bag to be snug fitting? Do you have room for all your "inside the bag" goodies and still be able to comfortably sleep? I have a little trouble with that in my lithium.
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brianinslc
Jan 22, 2007, 8:52 PM
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Several trips to Foraker and Denali: I'd recommend a single -30F bag. Especially if you're planning on camping up high, or, could be stuck on a route for a prolonged period of time (ie, the 17K camp on Denali, etc). Mines a Feathered Friends. Packs up nicely. Had it for a number of years (geez, since '90? Yikes...).
Have a lighter, small bag that's way less bulky (overstuffed Raven I think, cut wide for sleepin' with my kit). Considered taking it last trip, but, still opted to go with what I knew would provide sustained warmth/comfort.
I just don't get the feeling that many folks use sleeping bag systems up there...more common to get a single warm bag. More efficient in the long run.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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jhump
Jan 22, 2007, 9:08 PM
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In my 0, I wore a light Polarguard parka and bottoms. A hot water bottle is recommended. I can get whatever I need in there with me- liner boots, gloves, camera. I am pretty slim 6'0" 170. I fit fine. The slimmer bag is much warmer, so long as you are not compressing the down.
Anyone concerned about their bag being not warm enough should did a cave. It helps to acclimate, stays warm and safe in a storm, and is fun to create. I take a BD Firstlight tent and pitch it (well fortified) beside my cave. Then all the bases are covered and a 0 is perfect.
Of course, like big red said, I know my gear well. Surely noone going to Denali would be less than intimately familiar with their gear
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big_red
Jan 23, 2007, 12:58 AM
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Jhump- How has the firstlight held up in bad weather? I have one but have never had it in any adverse conditions...I generally save the eldorado for that.
haha and we all know that NO ONE ever takes gear they don't know on denali. I've never had to teach any boneheads how to light their stove or pitch their tent...haha
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csproul
Jan 23, 2007, 2:15 PM
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Thanks for the advice guys. As far as knowing your gear before taking it to Denali, for most of us in the lower 48 that is just not always possible. I have plenty of gear that has made winter trips in CO/WA and 6000+ meter trips to S. America, but I still think high up in Alaska is a different game. As cold as I have ever been in these situations, I doubt it compares. I like the advice to go with the conservative approach until I know better. Thanks again.
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jhump
Jan 23, 2007, 3:39 PM
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Firstlight tent has been fine. I dug it out from under 2 feet of snow one night- it held just fine. I am sure to really dig it in and fortify when pitching it. Survived the Rupal Face of Nanga Parbat on exposed stances and tiny hacked ledges for House/Anderson.
csproul have you been to New Hampshire mid-winter? I have never experienced a day in Alaska that was as harsh as a run-of-the-mill day on Mt. Washington. There are plenty of ways to prep in the lower 48. Stove discipline, cold camping, functioning with cold fingers...imagination can make up for inexperience.
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