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angry
Jan 21, 2007, 5:22 PM
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I went ice climbing for the first time yesterday. It's definately something I'm going to get into.
Most of my partners have spare tools, so I'm going to put that on hold.
I do need crampons though, that's not something easy to trade around at the base of a route.
I'm thinking I want fully rigid crampons. I want the ability to go mono to dual point (I used mono's, and they seemed more than adequate, but I want options, since I'm 100% new to this).
The two that I like due to price and options are the Trango Harpoon and Hyper Harpoon. The Harpoon is $109 according to Trango, but noone sells it for less than $129 (what gives?). The Hyper is $149 and has all the parts. It's cheaper than the regular harpoon if you add the cost of mono points and shit.
The only reason I'm not ordering right now is anti-balling plates. The harpoon has them readily available for $25. I don't see any that are made for the hyper, and what I've seen on the websites doesn't indicate that they come with them. So is the Hyper designed to be used safely without anti-balling plates, am I missing something?
I realize that most things don't require the plates, but remember, I'm a total n00b at this and as such, I'll probably try every style I can find someone to take me on.
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andypro
Jan 21, 2007, 5:39 PM
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Anti Balling plates are usually not worth thier weight. Only once in a very long while do I ever have balling problems, and that was solved by just giving my crampons a good whack every now and then. When they ARE needed, they really dont work so well anyways.
I'm curious about the newer style that have the "bubble" that supposedly pops snow out but have a feeling that even then it will ahrdly be needed.
If worse comes to worse, you can always make your own antibot's. Just some slick plastic and zip ties all cut to fit. Something like milk jug plastic or thereabouts.
Dont let the need for the AB's drive your choice of crampons. I've never heard anyone say bad things about the harpoon series so your probably on the right track there.
--Andy P
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willmunny
Jan 21, 2007, 5:47 PM
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You probably don't need ab plates for water ice climbing/cragging. when mountaineering (aka walking across snow from last winter), if snow is balling, stop and take your crampons off. do both those styles use the same plates?
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angry
Jan 21, 2007, 5:50 PM
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I like the idea of a ghetto fabulous mod. Thanks andy.
As far as using the same plates. Probably not, they are pretty different in shape.
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gbmaz
Jan 21, 2007, 8:59 PM
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I used to climb in the Harpoons and liked them a lot. I had the anti-bot plates for them and they broke after a week  . The plastic seemed too brittle for that application. Going with some sort of home made ones is a better bet with those crampons. I cut up one of those flexible cutting boards you can buy at cooking stores/supermarkets. I used stainless steel wire to attach them. I would think plastic zip ties would be easier and result in less holes in your finger tips.
The price difference you are seeing ($109 vs $129) may be that Trango has the ones with just the dual points (selling the mono as an upgrade) and the retailers may have some older stock of the ones that come with both the dual and mono (that is how they were sold for a long time).
The Hyper Harpoon is a sweet setup (and comes with a case I think). They are more on an asymetric shape which is nice on some of the newer leather boots. You are correct in thinking that the anti-bots are not interchangeable on these 2 models.
George
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kixx
Jan 22, 2007, 3:39 AM
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You're looking at the right crampon for what you want to do. They climb very well at the crags (where there is no need for antibot, as stated) but don't do so well in the mountains. If you're going to need to walk around in these things or take them to high elevation then look at a model without rails - like the Grivel G14.
As for mono point you're also right that you need to have them interchangable. There are a lot of ice conditions where you'll want the dual point.
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redpoint73
Jan 22, 2007, 5:46 PM
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My partner has the Hyper Harpoons. He loves them on the ice, but the lack of anti-botts has been a hassle. He called Trango, and they said they are NEVER going to make anti-botts for the Hypers, due to the lack of demand.
Whether you need them or not depends on the typical snow conditions in your area. I have heard many people getting by w/o them out west. But out here in the Northeast, we have a lot of crap, wet snow, and very transient conditions. Not having anti-botts can be a real pain.
Last week it was pretty warm, and my partner was getting huge 3-inch balls of snow stuck to his Hypers, and literally had to knock them off ever couple steps. I had no balling whatsoever on my M10's with anti-botts. Anti-botts don't weigh much. In my opinion, unless you are really trying to trim the ounces, you are better off with them and not needing them; rather then not having them on a day where you really need them.
I have heard of people making their own plates. If you have your heart set on the Hypers, maybe that should be your strategy. They are a very good vertical ice crampon for a great price.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jan 22, 2007, 6:43 PM
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You definitely *do* want anti-balling plates -- don't consider any crampon that lacks them. Even for Vail and Ouray stuff, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. And since you're starting out, you definitely should go mono point. Trangos are a great value.
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reno
Jan 22, 2007, 6:58 PM
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Pretty much what other folks said. I climb in the Trango Harpoons, and other than LONG approach hikes while wearing them, I have no complaints.
Get the mono front point conversion kit, get the anti-balling plates, and get out on the ice.
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plund
Jan 22, 2007, 6:59 PM
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The Harpoon anti-bots are okay, not great. When I go to the monopoint, if I really want something I just get creative with some duct tape, which works well enough for my applications....
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redpoint73
Jan 22, 2007, 7:18 PM
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plund wrote: The Harpoon anti-bots are okay, not great. When I go to the monopoint, if I really want something I just get creative with some duct tape, which works well enough for my applications....
So duct tape really does fix everything!!!
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redpoint73
Jan 22, 2007, 8:04 PM
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brent_e wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: You definitely *do* want anti-balling plates -- don't consider any crampon that lacks them. Even for Vail and Ouray stuff, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. And since you're starting out, you definitely should go mono point. Trangos are a great value. out of curiosity, why should he "definitely go mono point" if he's starting out? Angry, good luck with your crampon choice. Brent
I think he says that b/c monopoints take less effort to kick in (takes less energy to drive one point into the ice than two). Monopoints also shatter brittle ice less than duals.
But it depends on conditions. If the ice is crappy and soft, it doesn't take any energy to drive your frontpoint. But monos will shear easier, since all your weight is concentrated on one point.
Its nice that many vertical ice pons give you the option of changing the point configuration for varying conditions. Personally, its been all dual point for me b/c the last couple winters in New England have been pretty warm, and lots of crap ice. I've been to lazy to try the mono config on my M10's. But I have climbed some brittle conditions from time to time where I bet they would have helped.
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brent_e
Jan 22, 2007, 8:11 PM
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redpoint73 wrote: brent_e wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: You definitely *do* want anti-balling plates -- don't consider any crampon that lacks them. Even for Vail and Ouray stuff, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. And since you're starting out, you definitely should go mono point. Trangos are a great value. out of curiosity, why should he "definitely go mono point" if he's starting out? Angry, good luck with your crampon choice. Brent I think he says that b/c monopoints take less effort to kick in (takes less energy to drive one point into the ice than two). Monopoints also shatter brittle ice less than duals. But it depends on conditions. If the ice is crappy and soft, it doesn't take any energy to drive your frontpoint. But monos will shear easier, since all your weight is concentrated on one point. Its nice that many vertical ice pons give you the option of changing the point configuration for varying conditions. Personally, its been all dual point for me b/c the last couple winters in New England have been pretty warm, and lots of crap ice. I've been to lazy to try the mono config on my M10's. But I have climbed some brittle conditions from time to time where I bet they would have helped.
Hi Redpoint,
I see about driving force.
regarding shear, it seems to me that any mono that is designed well shouldn't be in all by itself unless the ice is VERY thin, as in, your secondary points should be engaging (true for duals, too). In that respect, the difference between monos and duals is only 1 point.
lol the NE has been crappy for a bit, eh? too bad, really. seems like it's getting cold finally.
thanks for the discussion
Brent
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jan 22, 2007, 8:15 PM
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brent_e wrote: out of curiosity, why should he "definitely go mono point" if he's starting out?
It's much easier transitioning from rockclimbing since many moves crossover...just more natural. And you don't have to unlearn climbing on dual points, which many old timers struggle with. For water ice and mixed, monos work better. For alpine, you're better off with horizontal dual points anyhow. Vertical dual points don't have any real advantages.
BTW it is true that Trango is out of the ice business for a while. But I wouldn't hesitate to get their crampons anyhow since they're bomber and they'll still support them if you need replacement points.
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brent_e
Jan 22, 2007, 8:17 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: brent_e wrote: out of curiosity, why should he "definitely go mono point" if he's starting out? It's much easier transitioning from rockclimbing since many moves crossover...just more natural. And you don't have to unlearn climbing on dual points, which many old timers struggle with. For water ice and mixed, monos work better. For alpine, you're better off with horizontal dual points anyhow. Vertical dual points don't have any real advantages. BTW it is true that Trango is out of the ice business for a while. But I wouldn't hesitate to get their crampons anyhow since they're bomber and they'll still support them if you need replacement points.
makes sense, RHJ, thanks.
I have to agree with dual vert points, too. I don't think i'll use them again.
thanks for the news on trango. I heard they weren't making tools anymore, which is sad because they are good stuff. didn't know about all ice gear, though.
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