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frodolf
Feb 1, 2007, 5:17 PM
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Hi.
I was reading the latest issue of Climbing magazine and there was this article on Ammon Mcneely and Ivo Ninov doing their speedclimbing thing on nailups. I understand that these guys are extremely experienced and CLIMB (a lot) faster than I do, but they said that the most important thing getting to the top fast is "continuous movement", in other words: short fixing.
I understand how it works, basically. The leader pulls up exess rope at the belay and start soloing the next pitch while the second's cleaning. But I have three questions:
1) Who's doing the hauling?
As I see it (I've got no experience, so this is highly hypothetical) the second's doing the hauling. This way the leader will focus only on the climbing, and thus the climbing will go faster. But on the other hand, would the haulbag get stuck while the second is hauling, then the climbers are kind of screwed. If the leader haul, they're in "control" of the haulbags, it's much easier to sort out any problems that might occur. Am I making myself clear?
2) What is the "standard" jugging set-up for the second?
As I see it (once again, I got no experience and this is hypothetical) should the leader fall on the next pitch (while he's soloing) the fall is absorbed by the weight of the second and the haulbag, as usual. But this means, indirectly, that the fall is catched by the seconds' ascenders, at least to some extent. This would, in my oppinion, highly advocate the use of a grigri set-up for the second.
3) How much better is it, really?
How much more difficult is it, how many of you big wallers do this on a regular basis, and how much faster is it for ordinairy people like me? Is it something just for the pros, something I shouldn't mess around with untill I have a few walls under my belt?
Thanks!
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the_alpine
Feb 1, 2007, 5:27 PM
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Short Fixing - 3 Answers:
1) What hauling?
2) Slap your jugs on and go - no fall force would be felt by the second - it goes to the anchor.
3) Waaaaaaay better (you're off the wall quicker)
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nthusiastj
Feb 1, 2007, 5:29 PM
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I believe since they are planning on doing the wall in a day the second jugs with a pack on his back (if anything). No hauling needed.
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iamthewallress
Feb 1, 2007, 5:33 PM
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There's a post around here or supertopo somewhere where ammon talks about his set up for short fixing w/ a haul.
If you're trying to do something in a day w/o hauling and are competant/confident enough to move at a reasonable pace w/ a self-belay, short fixing will be faster for pretty much everyone.
If you don't have your system dialed and move at 20% pace on self belay and get the ropes into a total disaster every time, then it won't help, and you run more risk of getting put on belay on the wrong side of the rope or something fun like that when your bewildered partner puts you back on 'regular' belay.
I've found that short fixing has been really great in a regular slow-going hauling wall when a sub-200ft bit of rock is broken into two pitches due to a highly traversing pitch to reduce drag. For example, there's a 100 ft. straight up pitch followed by a 60 ft. traverse. The problem w/ hauling a traverse is that you have to lower the bag all the way across and then haul it back up again. If the leader of the straight up bit pulls up rope an short fixes, they don't have drag for the traverse, and the bag doesn't get lowered out so much. The leader hauls at the end of the second pitch, and the follower doesn't start jugging until the haul is underway, so you don't have the benefit of having 2 climbing moving up at the same time in this scenario.
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frodolf
Feb 1, 2007, 5:35 PM
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In the article in Climbing magazine, Ammon and Ivo HAD haulbags which they hauled along.
And don't you tie in the rope to the powerpoint of the belay? That creates some slack (maybe up to a couple of meters) if pulled up as far as possible. But I could be wrong of course...
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iamthewallress
Feb 1, 2007, 5:44 PM
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Also...check out Hans Florine and Bill Wright's book for nice pictoral discriptions of short fixing w/o hauling.
To your specific question, the leader tends to start the haul and leave the rest of the hauling for the second to do when they get to the belay.
My IAD experiences have involved the second jugging with a pack or a route short enough to allow for a bag small enough to get haulled hand over hand or with a rapid leg haul by the leader.
This isn't the speed record way, but it'll let you have some fun in Zion on those November days when the temp might vary between 20 and 70 so a bag for a few extra clothes and a place to put your jugs on the free pitches can be enjoyable.
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munky
Feb 1, 2007, 5:49 PM
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I could be wrong, but I think they didn't haul and used a small pack with the second carrying all extras including clipping H20 bottles into harness,etc. What they did have was a tag line in which the second recycled the gear back up to the leader who had already fixed the rope for the second (he was jugging and cleaning) and then set off on lead (aiding) with a grigri as a self belay. The tag line was used by the second once he reaced the anchor he would clip the cleaned gear into the tag line and the leader would hand over hand it up to him to get the gear he needed to finish the pitch. The reason this works is that they are carrying essentially a double rack. That way, the leader never really runs out of pro and they can eliminate idle time. This is a great style to climb in, especially when you get it dialed. I'm looking forward to trying this when I go for a single push ascent on the Nose.
A little off topic, but do you guys remember in that article when the tag line got caught and Ammon was runout on 3 hook placements and he couldn't move. HOLY SHIT! That maniac had to rap off a hook about 80 feet to free the line and then jug up that 80' hoping the hook stayed. This might have been the most exciting, craziest thing I've ever read in a climbing magazine before. If that hook would have blown, man, he would have been going for a huge ride.
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frodolf
Feb 1, 2007, 6:48 PM
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Munky, with the risk of sounding rude, there are three pictures in the article that shows them with haulbags. It looks as if the leader is doing the hauling (maybe to get the "spare" rack?)
But basically I think you're right with the rack and tagging thing. And yes, that was some insane moves!
But ok, let's say the leader's doing the hauling, what about the jugging set-up? Is it common to place pro for upward pull at the belay so that a lead fall will not pull the belay upwards (I'm thinking primarily at "natural" belays)?
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yetanotherdave
Feb 1, 2007, 7:13 PM
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IIRC Ammon has stated that (at least low on the wall when you have more food/water) it's often better for the second to haul a light pack than to jug with it. The energy saved by breaking up the work that way ends up saving time. This'd be especially true on overhung routes where jugging with a pack is horrible and hauling is clean and easy. Either hand over hand or quickie leg haul with a minitraxion.
(This post was edited by yetanotherdave on Feb 1, 2007, 7:13 PM)
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styndall
Feb 1, 2007, 7:28 PM
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frodolf wrote: 2) What is the "standard" jugging set-up for the second? As I see it (once again, I got no experience and this is hypothetical) should the leader fall on the next pitch (while he's soloing) the fall is absorbed by the weight of the second and the haulbag, as usual. But this means, indirectly, that the fall is catched by the seconds' ascenders, at least to some extent. This would, in my oppinion, highly advocate the use of a grigri set-up for the second.
I think you've got this wrong. I've never done it, but I understand that the leader would fix the rope to his belay station and lead on the line, self-belaying with a gri-gri or what have you as in a normal aid solo scenario.
If the leader falls, he's caught by his own self-belay system, unrelated to the second.
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frodolf
Feb 1, 2007, 7:53 PM
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styndall wrote: frodolf wrote: 2) What is the "standard" jugging set-up for the second? As I see it (once again, I got no experience and this is hypothetical) should the leader fall on the next pitch (while he's soloing) the fall is absorbed by the weight of the second and the haulbag, as usual. But this means, indirectly, that the fall is catched by the seconds' ascenders, at least to some extent. This would, in my oppinion, highly advocate the use of a grigri set-up for the second. I think you've got this wrong. I've never done it, but I understand that the leader would fix the rope to his belay station and lead on the line, self-belaying with a gri-gri or what have you as in a normal aid solo scenario. If the leader falls, he's caught by his own self-belay system, unrelated to the second.
Yeah, I see what you mean, but what I meant was if you make the belay of, let's say, three bolts and tie them together with a cordolette for instance, and then short fix the rope to the powerpoint of the belay, then that knot is about a couple of feet or so BELOW the bolts, right? Those couple of feet is pulled UP in case of a (long) lead fall while the leader solos, right? This will, as I see it, result in pulling the second up as well, as he/she hangs from the rope connected to the powerpoint. Indirectly this means that the weight of the falling leader is absorbed by the weight of the second, TO SOME EXTENT, and could result in almost the same effect as you would get if belaying with an ascender.
But I'm probably wrong. Actually, I'm pretty sure I am. 
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iamthewallress
Feb 1, 2007, 11:05 PM
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Here's a common short fix situation for El Cap where most of the belays are bolted and therefore multidirectional:
Leader gets to belay, pulls up the slack, and tosses in a bunny ears figure eight. The set up the mini haul and start to haul. They lead off on their gri-gri from the bunny ears on which the follower is jugging and w/ the slack in the trail line to the haul behind them. When the follower gets to the anchor they tag up the gear and pully and get on regular belay. If the leader falls onto the knot that the jugger is jugging on, if the force is great enough, the follower will get lifted a bit just as a belayer normally would. This isn't a bad thing as it makes for a more dynamic situation for the leader. It does introduce the possibility of the leader factor-twoing onto the who teams anchor point.
If one were to short fix and start soloing off of an anchor that couldn't handle upward pull...well, that would be just plain stoopid.
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yetanotherdave
Feb 2, 2007, 12:51 AM
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Generally you'll want to have a screamer in the system if you're self-belaying without a pig in the system to offer some dynamic belay. If you have a three-bolt anchor then use two for your cordelette/bunny-ears 8, and have a few feet of slack between that and a screamer which is clipped to the third bolt. If you only have two bolts and no gear options then you use whichever anchor bolt is in the better position for your screamer.
You want the lengths to be such that if the screamer fully deploys, then all of the anchor points are roughly equalized.
If you weight the rope lightly and the screamer doesn't deploy, the second is unaffected. If you whip hard and deploy the screamer, then they will get lifted a bit, but that's probably the least of your worries...
(This post was edited by yetanotherdave on Apr 11, 2007, 3:47 AM)
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stymingersfink
Feb 2, 2007, 4:50 AM
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frodolf wrote: In the article in Climbing magazine, Ammon and Ivo HAD haulbags which they hauled along.
figure a gallon ea. for the day (that's double rations for a normal day's aiding IMO), enough calories to cover the two of them for 36 hrs (they're pushing for IAD, right?), a double-rack, extra rope, maybe a first-aid kit and emergency bivy gear (ya think they actully carried that last one? they weren't planning on stopping, not even for a stuck rope!). A 1/4-O on top of that couldn't weigh more than 55-60lbs all told... an easy haul.
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skinner
Feb 2, 2007, 7:20 AM
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Too funny, my friend is reading the aid forum..
<friend> what does this mean?
<me> I dunno.. read it to me
<friend> tah-whoo-ing onto..
<friend> twah-ong onto the..
<friend> twing onto the who..
<friend> twoo-ing onto the who teams.
<me> WTF??? Let me see that!
"It does introduce the possibility of the leader factor-twoing onto the who teams anchor point."
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frodolf
Feb 2, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Yes, of course I understand that their pig wasn't as heavy as it would've been on a seven day ascent, that it infact didn't weigh much at all.
But I was thinking of trying out this system myself, on the easier pitches of a multi pitch climb, maybe counting on a three day ascent. Bags for three days weighs a bit more, with portaledge, sleepingbags and all of that. And as I've understood the use for short fixing among "ordinary" climbers, it's exactly that - to make the easier sections of the climb go faster, leaving more time to the pitches that demands more time and concentration (and falls?).
I've kind of left the idea that "it would be like belaying with an ascender". Especially as Dave points out (screamer on a separate bolt). I'm eager to try it out on the local sixty-footer. Thanks for the answers.
BTW, it feels like I've made a fool out of myself somehow... Maybe I have, but it proves that I'm thinking before doing something that could get me killed.
Peace.
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yetanotherdave
Feb 2, 2007, 5:46 PM
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frodolf wrote: But I was thinking of trying out this system myself, on the easier pitches of a multi pitch climb, maybe counting on a three day ascent.
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iamthewallress
Feb 2, 2007, 6:06 PM
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...sorry I didn't proofread and had a few different generations of editing get scrambled up into my non-sentence.
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ammon
Mar 28, 2007, 8:17 PM
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I guess I should comment on this thread, huh?
Short-fixing: Get to the anchor, pull up all the rope (unless your partner needs some to lower-out with), make a double figure-eight (or bunny ear) and then clip the two loops with lockers. I use a Gri to belay myself and also clip a screamer, with efficient slack at the belay (back-up/third clip at the belay so not to disturb your partner in case of a fall).
Don't forget to clip your tag line at the belay so your partner can reach it when he gets there. The second cleans the pitch and then hauls the bag and re-rigs the belay.
I usually don't haul if I think it's going to be under 12 hours, or so. Yes, we did haul on NS.
Gear: We didn't take bivy gear but we did take rain gear/gortex. Remember, the one gallon per one day doesn't always apply because you are having 24 hour days and won't be sleeping. Bring plenty of food, it's not that heavy and without it you will hit the wall, literally.
Be flexible: Relax and take it easy, don't rush it to the point where you are gripped. You will not think straight or have an even flow of thought process if you are scared and can only think of pain, injury or death.
If it looks like the bags are going to get stuck half way up, then before you lead off the belay, haul the pig past the object it will get stuck on. Be ready to change your systems for what applies to the moment.
Have fun!!
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ammon
Mar 28, 2007, 8:51 PM
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To answer the three questions more clearly:
1) The second/cleaner usually hauls, unless the bags are obviously going to get stuck.
2) A double figure-eight or bunny ear, backed up with a clove-hitch on a screamer.
3) Its MUCH better. But, it's a technique that should only be used by experienced wall climbers.
My goal is always to get at least half way up the next pitch or end of the rope by the time your partner gets to the belay. That's half of the pitches you are not waiting around for you partner to get to the belay.
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stymingersfink
Mar 28, 2007, 11:12 PM
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frodolf wrote: Yes, of course I understand that their pig wasn't as heavy as it would've been on a seven day ascent, that it infact didn't weigh much at all. But I was thinking of trying out this system myself, on the easier pitches of a multi pitch climb, maybe counting on a three day ascent. Bags for three days weighs a bit more, with portaledge, sleepingbags and all of that. And as I've understood the use for short fixing among "ordinary" climbers, it's exactly that - to make the easier sections of the climb go faster, leaving more time to the pitches that demands more time and concentration (and falls?).
The problem we mere mortals run into when trying to plan a climb is the weight issue. Technically I can climb those pitches in 3 days, but if the hauling slows the party down it'll take at least 4, which means more water+food, which means the hauling will take longer, which means you might need more food+water... where does it all stop? (to answer that question : only at the top!)
On my first aid climbing experience I was seconding for a much more experienced partner who was willing+able to lead the entire thing. All I did was clean and haul, but while I was cleaning he was already leading the next pitch (short fixing). I would arrive at the belay, put him on belay and feed the rope I just jugged, re-anchor the lead, then tag any gear he needed to continue. Only then would I begin the haul.
When the bags arrived I would fill water bottles and tag one of those if necessary. Spend a few hours sorting gear, counting specks on the rock, watching other parties, cleaning my fingernails... whatever, then back to jugging+cleaning. Had I had the technical ability to get on the sharp end we probably would have led in blocks, swapping days to lead. The way it was done meant there was always somebody (him) leading. If we had been able to swap lead days it would have been better, as we would have gotten alternate "rest" days, not that hauling 200+lbs is all that restful, but it gives your lead head a break.
Thanks for providing a little more insight Ammon! Hope things are going well for you, and that your son will be showing you up shortly!
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iamthewallress
Mar 29, 2007, 4:04 AM
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"with efficient slack at the belay (back-up/third clip at the belay so not to disturb your partner in case of a fall)."
I don't know if you'll check back in, but I'm curious why you don't use them in the system to help w/ the soft catch in general. There are some situations where getting lifted would be bad, but it seems like it would counter balaned by keeping things softer on the peice that you clipped through at the anchor (i.e. your screamer)?
Having watched you (or your partner...couldn't tell) from across the way before, y'all certainly seemed to be moving fast, but at a pace that you thought was good fun for you. It's always a little shocking to see someone move up 700 feet on you over the course of a belay.
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ammon
Apr 11, 2007, 1:48 AM
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In reply to: but I'm curious why you don't use them in the system to help w/ the soft catch in general
Hi Mel, I'm not sure what your question is. In general, as in traditional big wall techniques?
I do. And recommend/teach to use a screamer on the best gear available asap right off the belay, use a directional if being lifted is an issue. I’ll usually use another one halfway up, depending on the difficulty of the pitch. A good rule of thumb is if it looks like hard/scary climbing above and you have good pro in where you’re at, a screamer is a good idea.
Using a screamer on a short fixed rope was just an idea we had, at first. But, it's proven to be a good idea in most cases. Watch out for drilled angles, however. The "fluttering" while the screamer is being pulled apart can cause the drilled angle to fail.
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iamthewallress
Apr 11, 2007, 2:09 AM
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Hi, Ammon. Thanks for the reply...maybe you're still logged in.
By 'them' I meant your partner (not a screamer), but to the same effect. You said that you put 'efficiency slack' at your anchor to avoid disturbing the jugger. I was wondering why you wouldn't generally want to lift them to get a softer catch? Maybe this is what you meant? (Tricky internet...)
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ammon
Apr 11, 2007, 4:28 AM
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Haa haa, I cut and pasted this for ya. Here's the slack I'm referring to. You wouldn't want to lift your partner because of edges, carabiner jams, etc., plus it's just plain scary to be juggin' along and whammm, because your partner whipped, not to mention all the links in the system shifting. Not good when you're already pushin' it, hee hee.
Edit to say: The picture above does not have enough slack... and my knot would never look like that, haa haa.
(This post was edited by ammon on Apr 15, 2007, 6:14 AM)
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