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bobruef
Feb 1, 2007, 5:33 PM
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So, its been a long day at your favorite multipitch crag, and you preparing for the descent (in the dark maybe if its been a good day  ). Its 2 or more raps to the ground with a few bolted stations between you and the deck.
How do most of you attach yourself at intermediate rap stations? Lets assume we're talking about bolted stations. I like to be into both bolts at all times until I'm back on rapell, but sometimes this can create a serious Cluster F---, especially if you're climbing in a party of three or more. This is further exacerbated by stations with thread-the-rope-through-style hangers. I'll admit, I often end up clipping into just one of the bolts for neatness'-sake. I know this is unsafe, and relying on just one bolt is a bad news practice that could catch up with me one day, but I still do it sometimes. On stations with a large ledge, this is less of an issue, but on stations that require you to hang out for a while, this can be a real pain.
How do you handle this situation? Do you build a little sliding-x anchor for everyone to clip to? Are you being dangerous like me?, or do you just put up with the CF and have a ba-jillion slings clipped into a couple of hangers, making actually getting on-rapell a serious pain?
It seems to me that the safest option in the case of thread-the-rope-through hangers would be to have a premade sliding x with limiters that the climbers clip into. This would be clipped above the rope as it runs through the hangers, making it easy to retrieve when the last guy weights the rope to rap.
Am I too concerned with expediency, and not concerned enough with safety here? I realize clipping just one bolt is bad news, but I'd like to be able to strike a ballance between bomb-proof rapells, expediency, and clean-simple setup.
What do you do?
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climbingaggie03
Feb 1, 2007, 5:47 PM
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I've never rapped with more than 2 people, but for 2 people, I just girth hitch 2 slings to my harness and clip them into each bolt.
for 3 (or more) the safest would be a sliding X with limiters. and that's not that big of a pain.
I definitely have spent time clipped to just one bolt, and i've seen biners that I thought were good come open at the anchor, so yeah, other people do it, but I worry about it too and try not to clip only one bolt more than I absolutely have to.
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bandycoot
Feb 1, 2007, 6:06 PM
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I just clip both bolts with two 2' slings also. If there isn't enough space for the 2nd (or 3rd) person to clip into the bolts, have them clip into the carabiners you clipped the bolts with. This means that they rappel first and there is no problem with that. They go down and clip both bolts, then you go down and clip both of their carabiners and rappel first next time etc. A simple and easy solution. I recommend you use lockers for this.
Josh
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altelis
Feb 1, 2007, 6:07 PM
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if its too much work/hassle/complication to set up a sliding x on a 2 bolt anchor then clip in with a cow's tail from your harness, you may want to rethink the whole multipitch thing....
no reason to be on a single bolt and no reason for there to be a clusterfuck.....no reason at all
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moof
Feb 1, 2007, 6:24 PM
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As always, it depends. If the route has stations at reasonable ledges, I just use my daisy. It basically has to keep me from wandering too far...
For routes like Crymson Crysalis, which has mostly shear bolted belays (rap rings, but no sliding X) I found that a 3' sling girth hitched to the harness plus my daisy was perfect. Without a sliding X or some other extension 2' slings would be painfully short here. The daisy was a nice adjustement depnding on whether I wanted to hang to the left or right to make room for my partner.
Better yet, on the way UP I'd tie into the anchor, and then clip into the bolts with my tether and daisy (sometimes better to do after the leader has cleared out). As soon as he called off belay I'd fully tear down the belay and be hanging by these two attachements. The first time I did this I freaked him out by calling "climbing!" as soon as he called "belay is on". Once I explained it, he did similar.
For trad climbs, if I'm on a ledge or a good stance I'll daisy into one or two bomber belay pieces, and similarly tear down the rest of the belay while my partner is screwing around at the next belay.
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shimanilami
Feb 1, 2007, 6:58 PM
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bandycoot wrote: I just clip both bolts with two 2' slings also. If there isn't enough space for the 2nd (or 3rd) person to clip into the bolts, have them clip into the carabiners you clipped the bolts with. This means that they rappel first and there is no problem with that. They go down and clip both bolts, then you go down and clip both of their carabiners and rappel first next time etc. A simple and easy solution. I recommend you use lockers for this. Josh
Ditto. I'd also suggest that you explain how this will proceed to the whole group before you start rapping. This is your best hope for avoiding the CF.
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bobruef
Feb 1, 2007, 7:01 PM
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bandycoot wrote: I just clip both bolts with two 2' slings also. If there isn't enough space for the 2nd (or 3rd) person to clip into the bolts, have them clip into the carabiners you clipped the bolts with. This means that they rappel first and there is no problem with that. They go down and clip both bolts, then you go down and clip both of their carabiners and rappel first next time etc. A simple and easy solution. I recommend you use lockers for this. Josh
Nice, I like this. It's a cleaner vaiation on what usually ends up happening with me. I'll have to put it into practice. Thanks for the helpful response. This will significantly clean things up.
(This post was edited by bobruef on Feb 1, 2007, 7:02 PM)
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jt512
Feb 1, 2007, 7:06 PM
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Clipping into a single bolt at a hanging belay is something you just don't do, and if I saw a partner violate this rule, it would be the last time I climbed with that person.
Jay
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tharlow
Feb 1, 2007, 7:30 PM
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First one to the station clips a locking biner to each bolt, usually 2 would be plenty. Subsequent climbers clip into same biners, keeping them locked at all times. When it's your turn, set up rap, unclip from biners, and go. Last one at station cleans up.
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tradrenn
Feb 2, 2007, 1:22 AM
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Up to the end of 06 I used to clip myself using 3 slings with 4 locking biners on it. ( if this is unclear I can post a pic with explanation )
Sometimes situations got to the point where I had to open my biners ( one at a time ) just so my partner could clip him/herself in.
To avoid CF I reverse the order, that means if I rap first on first rap, I'm last on second rap and last person from first rap is rapping first on second rap.
This set up works well for me when I'm climbing in 2 or 3 people team.
For 2007 I'm looking into Purcell Prusick.
BTW: I think I have done all the things that you are talking about in your OP post. I would like to improve before I push my luck too far.
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stymingersfink
Feb 2, 2007, 5:21 AM
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Clip to one bolt w/ locker on daisy, clip daisy w/ additional autolocker to second bolt. Second comes down, clips to locker, third (if party of three) clips to other locker. Thread the pull rope through the rap anchor, pull it, continue rapping. Not that I would recommend using such a system for anyone
Personally, I find few truly hanging belays on multipitch trad climbs around here pretty rare, but not unheard of. Try to avoid them when climbing as a party of three, as they are uncomfortable on the way up and on the way down.
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getsomeethics
Feb 2, 2007, 5:33 AM
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I have a daisy chain on my harness already and clip it into the bolt, bolts or chains or whatever is there and into the central point if there is one. If there are 2 seperate bolts, then the daisy goes to one and whatever else i have handy goes to the other bolt, while trying to keep it neat and clean for my partner.
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coastal_climber
Feb 3, 2007, 12:15 AM
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bobruef wrote: So, its been a long day at your favorite multipitch crag, and you preparing for the descent (in the dark maybe if its been a good day ). Its 2 or more raps to the ground with a few bolted stations between you and the deck. How do most of you attach yourself at intermediate rap stations? Lets assume we're talking about bolted stations. I like to be into both bolts at all times until I'm back on rapell, but sometimes this can create a serious Cluster F---, especially if you're climbing in a party of three or more. This is further exacerbated by stations with thread-the-rope-through-style hangers. I'll admit, I often end up clipping into just one of the bolts for neatness'-sake. I know this is unsafe, and relying on just one bolt is a bad news practice that could catch up with me one day, but I still do it sometimes. On stations with a large ledge, this is less of an issue, but on stations that require you to hang out for a while, this can be a real pain. How do you handle this situation? Do you build a little sliding-x anchor for everyone to clip to? Are you being dangerous like me?, or do you just put up with the CF and have a ba-jillion slings clipped into a couple of hangers, making actually getting on-rapell a serious pain? It seems to me that the safest option in the case of thread-the-rope-through hangers would be to have a premade sliding x with limiters that the climbers clip into. This would be clipped above the rope as it runs through the hangers, making it easy to retrieve when the last guy weights the rope to rap. Am I too concerned with expediency, and not concerned enough with safety here? I realize clipping just one bolt is bad news, but I'd like to be able to strike a ballance between bomb-proof rapells, expediency, and clean-simple setup. What do you do?
How do you do it?
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bbirtle
Feb 3, 2007, 1:01 AM
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Well here's what I do, always good to get some community feedback:
Check the quality of the anchor very carefully before coming off rappel (and if not satisfied then the following plan changes) and then clip into the cord/slings that form the rap point or the rap ring itself if big enough. On locking carabiner on a cow's tail. Your partner does the same thing.
Rationale: If this part of the anchor fails, you're dead, but wouldn't you also be dead if the same part of the anchor fails while on rappel?
- Brian
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bobruef
Feb 3, 2007, 3:12 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: bobruef wrote: So, its been a long day at your favorite multipitch crag, and you preparing for the descent (in the dark maybe if its been a good day ). Its 2 or more raps to the ground with a few bolted stations between you and the deck. How do most of you attach yourself at intermediate rap stations? Lets assume we're talking about bolted stations. I like to be into both bolts at all times until I'm back on rapell, but sometimes this can create a serious Cluster F---, especially if you're climbing in a party of three or more. This is further exacerbated by stations with thread-the-rope-through-style hangers. I'll admit, I often end up clipping into just one of the bolts for neatness'-sake. I know this is unsafe, and relying on just one bolt is a bad news practice that could catch up with me one day, but I still do it sometimes. On stations with a large ledge, this is less of an issue, but on stations that require you to hang out for a while, this can be a real pain. How do you handle this situation? Do you build a little sliding-x anchor for everyone to clip to? Are you being dangerous like me?, or do you just put up with the CF and have a ba-jillion slings clipped into a couple of hangers, making actually getting on-rapell a serious pain? It seems to me that the safest option in the case of thread-the-rope-through hangers would be to have a premade sliding x with limiters that the climbers clip into. This would be clipped above the rope as it runs through the hangers, making it easy to retrieve when the last guy weights the rope to rap. Am I too concerned with expediency, and not concerned enough with safety here? I realize clipping just one bolt is bad news, but I'd like to be able to strike a ballance between bomb-proof rapells, expediency, and clean-simple setup. What do you do? How do you do it?
Well, on lead I like to always use the lead rope. I don't like clipping in with static anything to the anchor. I'm usually clipped in on a clove hitch backed up w/ a figure 8 on a bite into the power point.
On rapell, I like to have a double length sling girth hitched into the tie-in points, with a couple of overhands or 8s tied into it to make it adjustable. I'll get a daisy when I get into aid cimbing, I like a full strength runner for tethering myself off. I've got a locker on the end to clip inton the rap station, and the rap device into one of the shorter loops, leaving room for a prussic off my belay loop (i find a prussic off the leg loop to be not quite as smooth). Sometimes I have another double length runner that I clip into the other bolt. I like the other runner's setup thought, because I can get in on rapell, pull myself into the anchor w/ the prussic setup, release the top locker(s), and I'm on rapell. It can just be a cf sometimes when you've got a bunch of biners into the same bolt hanger, having to weight and unweight them to get people free. I like the idea of just having your partner clip into your biners, and putting them on rapel next though. I think this will really clean things up.
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oldsalt
Feb 3, 2007, 4:48 PM
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bobruef wrote: Well, on lead I like to always use the lead rope. I don't like clipping in with static anything to the anchor. I'm usually clipped in on a clove hitch backed up w/ a figure 8 on a bite into the power point. On rapell, I like to have a double length sling girth hitched into the tie-in points, with a couple of overhands or 8s tied into it to make it adjustable. I'll get a daisy when I get into aid cimbing, I like a full strength runner for tethering myself off. I've got a locker on the end to clip inton the rap station, and the rap device into one of the shorter loops, leaving room for a prussic off my belay loop (i find a prussic off the leg loop to be not quite as smooth). Sometimes I have another double length runner that I clip into the other bolt. I like the other runner's setup thought, because I can get in on rapell, pull myself into the anchor w/ the prussic setup, release the top locker(s), and I'm on rapell. It can just be a cf sometimes when you've got a bunch of biners into the same bolt hanger, having to weight and unweight them to get people free. I like the idea of just having your partner clip into your biners, and putting them on rapel next though. I think this will really clean things up.
OK, I'll be the one to ask....
Whaaaaaaaaaaat?????????????
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rockguide
Feb 3, 2007, 6:13 PM
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altelis wrote: if its too much work/hassle/complication to set up a sliding x on a 2 bolt anchor then clip in with a cow's tail from your harness, you may want to rethink the whole multipitch thing.... no reason to be on a single bolt and no reason for there to be a clusterfuck.....no reason at all
word.
All the first person needs to is toss in a quick anchor (sliding x works) and puts their tether in. Everyone else does the same and the anchor is left clear.
top tip - when people clip in their tethers they do so UNDER the rappel ropes so you are more free to manage pulling the ropes for the next.
as for the idea that the first person in nails the good clip in (the bolts) and others clip into the first person if the bolts are full ... well - just make sure that you leave the station in the opposite order that you arrived or someone could find themselves just standing there. Silly rabbit.
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majid_sabet
Feb 3, 2007, 7:26 PM
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My recommendations
Keep it simple (Easy for every one to inspect).
Have two points of attachments (from harness to bolts).
Check and slowly take your attachments off before each rap and make sure you are connected to belay device and rope.
Check and make sure you do not disconnect your partner’s link instead of your own (Few years back, partner killed his best friend by disconnecting a wrong link and send his buddy down 330 meter to his death)
Least experience member should rap in between the most experience members and should never be alone as the last person to rap.
Take head lamp with you on a long multi rap ( Sh*t may hits the rock and you could spend the cold night on the wall due to not finding the last bolt).
IF you see stuff on the wall not belonging to you (rope, sling, and gears) do not touch, leave it alone (They may left it there on purpose).
Have prusik with you in case sh*t hits the fan and you need to climb up the rope.
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 3, 2007, 7:51 PM)
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altelis
Feb 3, 2007, 10:37 PM
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majid----i respectfully COMPLETELY disagree
the best way to avoid a clusterfuck is to have everybody clip into the anchor and the last person clean the anchor.
on bolts, it is INFINETLY easier and less complicated to make a sliding x anchor, everybody clip into the master point. so much less to deal with, the bolts are less cluttered (only have a biner and rope running through it) AND you only need one cow's tail (with a locker on the end to clip into the anchor) and a locker (for the rap device) attached to your anchor. 2 things on your belayloop/tie in points and two things per bolt.
this is THE BETTER METHOD
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bobruef
Feb 4, 2007, 12:12 AM
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Majid- your post completely missed the point of my OP. The whole issue being dealt with here has nothing to do with ONE person clipping in, but when multiple people have to clip into a couple of hangers, or chains that don't come together to form a preconstructed masterpoint. The OP was not about whether or not a headlamp should be brought along, or about whether a helmet should be worn, whether or not to inspect the bolts, or about stealing hardware from the rap station. It was just about seeing how other people deal with the potential Cluster-F--- possible at rap stations like the one I described.
altelis wrote: majid----i respectfully COMPLETELY disagree the best way to avoid a clusterfuck is to have everybody clip into the anchor and the last person clean the anchor. on bolts, it is INFINETLY easier and less complicated to make a sliding x anchor, everybody clip into the master point. so much less to deal with, the bolts are less cluttered (only have a biner and rope running through it) AND you only need one cow's tail (with a locker on the end to clip into the anchor) and a locker (for the rap device) attached to your anchor. 2 things on your belayloop/tie in points and two things per bolt. this is THE BETTER METHOD
...and I completely disagree with you. With one intermediate rap station this is fine. But if a sliding x is set up on the first intermediate rap anchor reached, then the first person to rap from here has to build a new one on the next station. At least 6 biners and 2 slings are required for this (beyond everyone's cowtail setup). Only 2 biners and two slings are required for bandycoot's setup (beyond everyone's cowtail setup in a party of two) While possibly a good option if you've got less experienced climbers that you don't want to send down first, this is much less efficient than bandycoot's method. Takes more time, more gear. I've done this before. I find it inefficient.
altelis wrote: ...you may want to rethink the whole multipitch thing....
Thanks stud... this isn't my first rodeo.
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dutyje
Feb 4, 2007, 1:32 AM
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bobruef wrote: It seems to me that the safest option in the case of thread-the-rope-through hangers would be to have a premade sliding x with limiters that the climbers clip into. This would be clipped above the rope as it runs through the hangers, making it easy to retrieve when the last guy weights the rope to rap.
EDIT: This is what I do... or what Reno mentions below with the power point... Doesn't matter which. Both take very little time to set up, and are much cleaner/simpler.
(This post was edited by dutyje on Feb 4, 2007, 8:31 PM)
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majid_sabet
Feb 4, 2007, 1:38 AM
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reno wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Keep it simple [IMG]http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/707/key70096pd5.jpg[/IMG] You call that simple?
For three climbers on rap station and been attached with two slings per person, I would call it simple unless you think those 6 slings are for one person
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 4, 2007, 1:55 AM)
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reno
Feb 4, 2007, 1:55 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: For three climbers and been attached with two slings , I would call it simple unless you think those 6 slings are for one person
I count four slings, one daisy, and a section of purple cord.
If you're happy with it, and feel it's safe enough, then by all means, use it.
There are simpler ways, though.
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majid_sabet
Feb 4, 2007, 2:01 AM
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