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jt512
Sep 17, 2002, 1:20 AM
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Quote:
B_G is coorrect. He is talking about HUGE eye glue in bolts.
B_G is not correct, Aaron. His post did not state that he was referring to a specific type of glue-in, and hence logically implied that it would be safe to run your rope thru any glue-in bolt. His message was thus misleading and potentially dangerous.
Quote:Just because you have not seen them in SoCal (as I am well aware they are not used because of the arid environment and predomintaely granitic nature of rock), do not assume they would not be usuable for that purpose.
I have seen similar glue-ins and, in fact, assumed that that was what B_G was talking about. I even agree that you can run your rope thru them. However, there are other glue-ins that use usual hangers, which you should never run your rope thru. And since B_G wasn't clear about that, his statement was incorrect.
As for downclimbing, I've done it "several" times, too, and always when I was backing off for safety reasons, just like you. These are unusual cases. I said that generally you will be backing off because the route is too hard, so downclimbing is unlikely to be a practical option.
Quote:Since we are talking about sport routes, down climbing even 1 move usually puts you into the 3-4 foot fall range. No big deal if you can't make it, just drop off, tram back up to the bolt to get by the hard parts. If you made it up it, it stands to reason you can make it down with gravity's help.
If this is such an attractive option, please explain why almost always, climbers, including yourself, elect to bail off a biner instead.
Quote:
Don't be so closed minded Jay, there are other valid opinions other than your own.
I'm not closed-minded, Aaron. I'm just tired of reading ignorant, dangerous posts.
-Jay
Edit: PS. I reread B_G's post and he did have the word "rounded" in parentheses after "glue-in." The problem with his post then is not that he didn't try to specify what type of glue-in he was talking about; it's that he didn't do it clearly. That's still not good enough, though, when the issue is safety.
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-16 19:20 ]
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cclaytorus
Sep 17, 2002, 1:52 AM
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Mike - you're asking a good question, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Sorry folks, I have to agree with Jay...the texas rope trick works, but it's a pain, time consuming, and eventually burns through a perfectly good runner (after you pull your rope through it.)
I've never understood the reluctance of climbers leaving gear behind if it's the simplest, safest way down. For God's sake, a Black Diamond Oval carabinewr retails at $4.95. Skip the McD's extra value meal on the way home, and call it a day.
When you've been around enough to measure your career in DECADES instead of months, you come to realize that a little gear left behind is no big deal.
FYI - to whomever ended up with a #1 camalot and a #7 stopper, 2 slings 2 ovals on Spock's Brain at Seneca: You're welcome.
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whipper
Sep 17, 2002, 1:59 AM
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JT is right once again. Sorry all of you who arew wrong. Come on Webbing? Quicklinks? Not at sport climbing areas. Not even the best on trad. Save that bunk stuff and leave a bail biner. Once you get good enough to climb stuff others bail of off then you get them back in the turn around. And yes, feel free to use found gear it is called bootie. It makes up half my rack. I use pieces found at the base of 1000 ft walls(for aid or indian creek)
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coconutz
Sep 17, 2002, 2:08 AM
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I'm surprised that no one has said this yet; just "batman" up the route . You just start yarding on draws to: one get yourself past the crux to easier ground where you can finish the climb and lower properly and retrive your draws or two simple "batman" from bolt to bolt. Most of the sport climbs i've been on have had the bolts close enough that you can pull on the dray and french free yourself to the next bolt with a draw and clip your rope in to it.
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jt512
Sep 17, 2002, 2:18 AM
Post #30 of 44
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Quote:Most of the sport climbs i've been on have had the bolts close enough that you can pull on the dray and french free yourself to the next bolt with a draw and clip your rope in to it.
I want to climb where you climb. On most sport climbs, the bolts aren't that close together. A related option, which I think someone mentioned briefly, is to anchor into the bolt, untie, lower your end of the rope down to the ground, have your partner attach the stick clip to the rope, haul up the stick clip, and stick clip the next bolt. This may enable you to get to the anchors, where you can set up a top rope to work the route.
-Jay (who cheats a lot)
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-16 19:38 ]
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climbingcowboy
Sep 17, 2002, 2:32 AM
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Since we're talking sport climbing here and your new to it get a stick clip this saved my butt a few times when I was pushing myself and me and partner couldnt get past a certian move and didnt want to leave gear.
You just dasiy into the last bolt with a locker, then use your stick clip to clip the next bolt and wow now your on top rope have your partner take you THEN unclip your dasiy.
If you still cant pull the move then pull yourself up the rope.
Some places you cant do this so then I use a bail biner I've always got it with me it holds my chalk bag. Just what I do.
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roughster
Sep 17, 2002, 11:01 AM
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I guess I should have been a bit clearer as to the jist of my original comment:
The other suggestions are not wrong rather they may be alternative ways that represent a less than ideal way of getting down, but never the less they do accomplish exactly that.
As I stated in my earlier post, I think leaving a bail biner is preferred, but in actuality the most correct method is to avoid this situation entirely by either bringing a stick clip or ensuring that you have the "guns" to make it to the top of the route in the 1st place
The bottom line for me is not what Jay was stating but rather the manner as to which it was said. As experienced climbers we have a legacy to uphold, which is the transfer of climbing knowledge to the next generation. Remember, every one of us started our climbing journey with zero knowledge, someone helped you learn, it is our duty to uphold that tradition.
Now as the person being "schooled" would you rather have someone who recognized other legitimate means of accomplishing the same thing, or would you rather listen to someone who dismisses them offhand and insinuates that his is the only solution?
There is a reason why many of the more experienced climbers on these boards left Rec.Climbing and it is because of the elitist attitude of the posters there. It would be unfortunate if that same attitude slowly crept into the posting here. If you can't respond in either good faith or fun, why not wait till you can? At worst you rethink your idea, and at best you avoid pissing others off. Both ways is a win/win situation.
Anyways, I'll step off the soapbox now with a last few comments that address previous questions as to my posts:
- BG did refer to the "type" of eye bolt when he said "(rounded)". That was good enough for me to understand and do not think it is far off base nor would be confusing to anyone who is familiar with that type of bolt.
- I do not "down whip" climbs often because it is hard on your rope and most likely I can dog my way to the top. I have down whipped a few routes over the course of the last 10 years. Nothing wrong with it and in some cases (steep routes) it is fun
[ This Message was edited by: roughster on 2002-09-17 04:05 ]
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dantman
Sep 17, 2002, 11:50 AM
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buy 2 feet of webbing and learn how to tie a water knot. Carry the webbing on your harness at all times during sport climbs. this 2 ft of webbing will cost about 2 dollars. Tie this off to your last bolt remove your quickdraw and set up a rap off the webbing. This way you only loose an inexpensive piece of webbing. DON'T get lowered off this piece of webbing as friction will cut right through. Rappel off it!
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beyond_gravity
Sep 18, 2002, 2:33 AM
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If you are going to leave webbing, DO NOT tie it to the bolt!! just "Double Thread" it as a loop so the next person to climb the route can simply just pull it out and drop it.
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jt512
Sep 18, 2002, 2:38 AM
Post #35 of 44
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Don't leave webbing at all!!!!! B_G, get a clue, already! I cannot think of a single valid reason to leave webbing on a bolt on a sport climb.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-17 19:40 ]
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rock_climbin_06
Sep 18, 2002, 2:47 AM
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My dad and I have this problem all the time and we usually just leave a little D biner behind. The problem is usually we climb to the half length of a 50M rope(yes, we now have a 60M but sometimes money doesn't permit you to get things right away) but we would get to the half way point and would have to bail. Going that high up and having to downclimb the entire route you just did again is a little frustrating.
-Adam
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jt512
Sep 18, 2002, 2:59 AM
Post #37 of 44
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Quote:
My dad and I have this problem all the time and we usually just leave a little D biner behind. The problem is usually we climb to the half length of a 50M rope(yes, we now have a 60M but sometimes money doesn't permit you to get things right away) but we would get to the half way point and would have to bail.
This should never happen. You should know the length of the route and the length of your rope before you start up. If the rope isn't long enough, don't start up the route, knowing you will have to bail. When you bail, you're trusting your life to a single bolt. That is not something you want to do unnecessarily.
-Jay
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pbjosh
Sep 21, 2002, 7:24 AM
Post #38 of 44
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I would not lower off of a glue-in close loop type bolt like the picture posted. Depending on how dirty a rope is and the type of rock around even a few lowers can wreck hangers. Titanium is the most frequent metal for glue ins AFAIK (because you need Ti and glue to get a safe combo on sea cliffs, the primary application of these, where there happens to be a LOT of sand to get in your rope). Ti wears much faster than steel when you run a gnarly rope over it.
As is good ettiquette anywhere, rap when you can (ie, when not through your own gear or when not bleeding to death) instead of lowering.
I've personally witnessed anchors on popular sport routes (f*cking open shuts at Clark Canyon) go from new and shiny and safe looking to half way worn through and pretty sketchy in ONE WEEK - seven days. I think open shuts suck the dog's balls.
josh
ps - For what it's worth, I think steel rap rings or chains or quicklinks should be the defacto sport anchors and there should be little signs attached to them telling people not to freakin' use them for lowering or even worse for TR'ing. That would relieve the majority of the "anchor replacement" funds for places like the Owen's River Gorge where people lower off and TR through anchors all the time until they need frequent replacing.
[ This Message was edited by: pbjosh on 2002-09-21 00:26 ]
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airscape
Sep 21, 2002, 2:48 PM
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I got stuck on a route half way up just the other day, I was one clip away from the top. All i did was unclip, tell the belayer to hold and i jumped, I got to one bolt that was on quite a tricky bit to unclip, cause there was nothing for me to hold onto, so i threaded a piece of accesorry cord thru the A-plate(a sling wouldn't fit) held on to that unclipped then just grabbed opne end of the cord and jumped taking the cord with me. when i got to the second last clip, i down climbed.
It's a little bit nerve racking to unclip and jump the first time, but after about 2 unclips, u get the hang of it.
There was no way for me to get to the top to rappel down btw.
On another route i once climbed where i got stuck, i climbed an easier route that was next to it and collected my draws.
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jgorris
Sep 21, 2002, 3:36 PM
Post #40 of 44
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Tie this off to your last bolt remove your quickdraw and set up a rap off the webbing.
Downclimbing the route also works.
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beyond_gravity
Sep 22, 2002, 11:34 PM
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sometimes you have to lower off the bolt (assuming you are willing to take the risk), like on a really steep route when you have to have a trap line to clean the rest of the draws, you can't do that very safly on rap.
Lets say you have a 60m rope, and your 22m off the deck...how are you going to rap and not leave any gear?? you have to leave a sling.
whats your problem, dude? Would you rather just pull a sling out and drop it, or have to untie it??
Sheesh! Adults these days...
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daggerx
Oct 1, 2002, 2:09 PM
Post #42 of 44
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Bail bean is the safest thing to do.
DaggerX
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nikkky
Oct 4, 2002, 4:01 PM
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I found myself in a situation such as this at Williamson, I had some friends with me, yellow jackets!! Best advice? Do your home work! If I had, I certainly wouldn't have had to spend an hour down climbing sweating my A*s off! and your never to cool to leave gear
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kevindvten
Oct 16, 2002, 11:00 PM
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How to lower off an incomplete sport lead?
In shame. Get back on and finish the damn thing.
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