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adampaulgable
Feb 9, 2007, 2:44 AM
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This might seem simple but just a question for someone who has recieved his first portaledge and seen things done a couple of ways. Should i
A. Haul the ledge below the haulbag
B. Haul the ledge on the same knot as the haulbag
C. try somehow to make it fit in the bag. Havn't seen this one
Just recieved a bd cliff cabana and the bag just doesn't seem to be the most bomber material out there. Why they wouldn't make these out of haul bag material is beyond me. Any advice would be really great.
Thanks Adam
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iamthewallress
Feb 9, 2007, 2:47 AM
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Below on a cord attached to your haul pint. Beside will squish into your bag all the time. It probably won't fit in your bag all the way unless you've got a really, really big bag.
Edit: The haul pint was a typo, but I think it's funny, so I'm leaving it.  Some people swear by their haul pint, although the more hardcore types may prefer a haul 40.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 9, 2007, 2:53 AM)
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moof
Feb 9, 2007, 3:58 AM
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So far it's been under the haul bag. Running a cord from the haul point (pint) to the bag makes a lot of sense to prevent butter fingers, but not required. I just clip into the ledge bag with a daisy.
Some folks will talk of flagging the ledge, I haven't. Only do so on vertical or overhung routes. Hauling your ledge through a slabby gully is bad form.
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guanoboy
Feb 9, 2007, 4:35 AM
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if its steep 'flag' your ledge - it'll save you an hour a day and give your belayer a nice belay ledge.
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holdplease2
Feb 9, 2007, 3:43 PM
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Two aspects of flagging your ledge:
1) Does not work too well with Metolius Bombshelter. The ledge can start to torque, the spreader bar then falls out, and can tangle in the bags while the rest of the ledge decomposes and whipps in the wind. Not fun.
2) While it seems a good idea to actually attach the ledge to the pigs to keep it from moving up down and around on the rope, this is, in fact, not a good idea. IF the ledge tries to spin and is clipped to the pig, it will now begin twisting your haul line which makes a terrible mess as you try to haul.
Just let the ledge "ride" the haul line with three points of attachment.
Also, be careful as you remove it from the haul line and take it to the anchor. Its a giant sail and can whip out of your hands.
FINALLY AND IMPORTANTLY: On my last wall, my parnter decided to clip the flagged ledge in with a long tether. As I was watching the thing spun in the air, took two laps around the anchor and the metal corner of the ledge fartuest from the attachment hit him in the face like a baseball bat.
The screaming was so impressive that a soloist rapped in from a nearby route to see who was dead. My partner's face was smashed and we got some vicodin from a nearby party and he re-seated his teeth in his jaw, which was good enough for us to top out.
So be careful with large light flying objects that have hard corners.
I swear, I've never heard screaming like that before, hope to never hear it again.
-Kate.
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guanoboy
Feb 9, 2007, 4:06 PM
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sorry to hear about the difficulties, holdplease2. People should heed your story regardless of flagging, b/c if the ledge is out it can flap around. Personally, I have had great luck 'flagging' and find that it saves me a lot of time and trouble every day on the wall. I think it may even reduce the amount of time i'm dealing with a flying metal because i don't have to assemble and disassemble it every day.
Adampaulgable- get out there and enjoy the views. There's no better alarm clock than rolling over and seeing 1000' ft of space below you.
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iamthewallress
Feb 9, 2007, 5:28 PM
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I've never flagged a ledge...partly, I'll admit, because I don't know how to do it properly and have been to lazy to learn.
Once I was sitting in the meadow having a rest day and watching the Huber bros climb Zodiac in 2 hours with the rest of the looky lous when I saw the ledge of the other party on the route go into catastrophe mode. They were in the eddy above Peanut Ledge where Kate and I experienced the lower out line getting whipped around the bag about a hundred times. The ledge started whipping around in giant arcs. It kind of looked like they would all be cut loose, and everyone's eyes moved away from the flying Bavarians up to the imminent disaster above them.
I met the party a couple of says later. They had the ledge attached to a big stopper at its haul point (don't know why), and the stopper which they showed me was shredded to all but a couple of little wires. A friend of theirs came by w/ zoomed in footage of the event from the road. I have no idea how they eventually got it under control w/o needing to cut it loose.
I've been told by many that the ledge did that to them b/c they 'didn't do it right', but in my ignorace and laziness I haven't been able to understand how a different set up would avoid such a situation in a strong eddy like that. Chongo said that rigged properly it should go back and forth like a weather vein instead of catching the wind like a sail....but it seems to me that a weather vain would spin around like a propeller in such conditions.
So, if someone want to explain to me how the flying ledge situation would be absolutely avoidable, I'll try harder to understand the rig this time. My gut makes me feel like it's sort of an inherently snafu prone system though. Why is my gut, apparently, wrong?
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guanoboy
Feb 9, 2007, 5:56 PM
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I do nothing more than clip the one long side of the ledge to the haul line above the pig (attached at top and bottom corner and middle with one beaner each). I don't tether it to the bag. This way it can just swing around without tangling anything. I could see the tether twisting everything. I don't know if this is chongo certified, but its worked for me. Its easy and saves time. It can be a little rough on the ledge when hauling over edges.
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yetanotherdave
Feb 9, 2007, 8:47 PM
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holdplease2 wrote: Does not work too well with Metolius Bombshelter. The ledge can start to torque, the spreader bar then falls out, and can tangle in the bags while the rest of the ledge decomposes and whipps in the wind. Not fun.
does it matter how the ledge is oriented when it's flagged?
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cellardoor
Feb 9, 2007, 10:29 PM
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Just a thought from someone who hasn't touched a portoledge. Is there a way to collapse the canvas but leave the integrety of the frame intact. This should prevent it from acting like any kind of sail. It there is not, could you mod the ledge to work as such? Say sow your own canvas to make it easy on, easy off?
(This post was edited by cellardoor on Feb 9, 2007, 10:29 PM)
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holdplease2
Feb 10, 2007, 1:15 AM
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Hi Dave:
You must orient it long ways along the rope, otherwise, you put a ton of torque on it and it would be super high profile.
The problem with flagging the Metolius ledge is the same problem thats inherant with the ledge itself...if the spreader bar isn't in there, the poles fall out of the "cups" on the corners.
Under stress, such as blowing around and banging on stuff, the thing will become unstable and fall apart. I've flagged it on two walls, and its held together for about 2/3 of its pitches. However, when it falls apart it is far more likely to end up damaged or torqued, which you don't want.
The reality is that with these new nice ledges, if you practice a few times you can set them up and break them down in 5 minutes. Gone are the days of hammering on your beat up old school ledge.
The metolius, if you have a partner, is incredibly easy to set up and take down. Flagging it puts one of your very important wall items at risk, IMO.
You could try to duct tape the whole thing into a stable position, but if super-high winds pick up you will want to take it down in a hurry. It will get completely thrashed in no time if there isn't a human body in it for ballast...you will be totally screwed if you have taped/wired it into open position and now have to haul it.
Hope this helps,
-Kate.
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iamthewallress
Feb 10, 2007, 1:30 AM
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Are you totally anti-flagging now, Kate, or just with the metolius?
Do you thing the flying propeller ledge that I saw was their bad or just what happens in a big circular updraft?
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stymingersfink
Feb 10, 2007, 1:36 AM
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^^(Cellardoor) Why bother? ^^
The "flagging" technique works best on steep routes, as free-hanging hauls won't beat up your equipment. Using the old BD sky Lounge double, here is what I have found to work best for me:
At two corners of the long side of the ledge, into the harness webbing as close to the frame as possible, clove hitch a biner. I preferr the "outside" long edge, and I usually leave them there for the duration of the climb, as at night I can clip personal effects into the biner in my corner quite handily. these biners also keep the ledge from collapsing, as they prevent the harness from being pulled through the Skylounge frame tubing.
Now, the haul has been set, the slack has been pulled out of the system by the leader at the top anchor, and things are nearly ready to lower-out. Lift the outside of the ledge towards you, making sure you are not tangled in the suspension webbing. Clip one corner to the taut haul line and push this clipped corner up the haul line as far as you can before the suspension limits your movement. Now, unscrew the locker attaching it to your anchor and clip it to the haul line as well. Continue pushing the ledge up the haul line till the (now) bottom outside corner can be clipped to the haul line as well. Call your lowerout and do so.
When the haul bags get near the anchor I will usually reach down and pull the top corner up to me, unclipping the biner attached to the rope (but not the suspension harness... remember it stays right there for the duration) and clip it to one of the farthest anchor points. Then I may reach down and remove the suspension master-point locker, clipping it to its home for the duration of its stay at the anchor. Reach down and unclip the final biner from the haul line, voila! your ledge is off the haul.
I have also:
-----lain it flat against the wall till I finish hauling/docking, using slings to secure the outside edges to the wall
-----let it hang by one corner so it stays out of the way, backed up with a sling to the master locker of course, but this only works in still air. if a breeze comes up WATCH OUT!
-----docked the pigs, sitting unconfortably atop them them for several hours expecting my partner to finish the pitch quicker than he did, figuring that setting up the ledge would be a waste of time (it wouldn't have been, duh!).
-----immediately set up the ledge, got comfortable for a good long wait, sorted gear, took a nap, fished some grub out of the haul, refilled water bottles, took a leak, finished my nap, woke up and waited some more, then finally broke things down to repeat the haul/flag sequence again.
Done properly, the entire thing is free to move up and down the haul line, as it is above the swivel. On free-hanging hauls, any breeze will cause it to wave in the wind like a "flag", hence the term "flagging". Like a weather vane, it will always trail on the leeward side of the haul line. Care must be taken when the bags will need to be pulled over a roof or feature, as the ledge may hang up on the underside.
In high winds one must be very cautious setting up/breaking down your flag, as if the thing is clipped in to only one point it will try to corkscrew in the wind, which is probably what happened in the above mentioned story about the Zodiac party. Strong updrafts may necessitate some other strategic plays when leaving the unweighted ledge clipped to the anchor, but I leave it to you to figure out.
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Feb 13, 2007, 1:49 AM)
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holdplease2
Feb 10, 2007, 2:01 AM
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Hey M:
I'm totally for flagging, and for a calm-day, short haul, like if I fixed three pitches and hauled as one, I'd still flag the Metolius, just for the haul. I'm into linking hauls now, to assure the last lead gets done in the light.
Sometimes we'd lead a pitch, lower out the pig, leave it hanging, and lead the next pitch, then lower it again and haul as one. In this case, we would actually zip the ledge up the haul line using the tag line before loweing out the haul, so that the belayer would have a place to chill (Some of our leads were 4+ hours, as the wall was not that easy)
On a partnered wall I'll prolly always flag, with the option of taking it down if it got super windy.
Regarding the circular updraft, those are actually not that bad, as long as the ledge isn't actually clipped to the pig. It can spin around the haul on top of the rope protector and float up and down the line a bit. In the case of the torqued wire you saw, the precise problem was that the ledge was clipped to the pigs and couldnt spin freely, I'd guess.
:)
-Kate.
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yetanotherdave
Feb 10, 2007, 1:03 PM
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holdplease2 wrote: You must orient it long ways along the rope, otherwise, you put a ton of torque on it and it would be super high profile.
sorry, should have been more specific: has it made any difference when flagging if the open cup on the 'bottom' of the ledge when flagged was rope-side or non-rope-side?
I was envisioning adding a diagonal tensioning strap that'd hold the spreader-bar in and resist sagging when flagged...
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holdplease2
Feb 10, 2007, 2:48 PM
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Hi Dave:
I don't know if that would matter, but I doubt it. The only way to find out is to give it a go! Try it in low wind on overhaning ground... The worst that could happen in those circumstances is that your ledge falls apart on the way up, and you just stuff it in the bag or re-assemble.
The best is that you could report back to us metolius users a way to flag our ledges more securely, which would be cool.
:)
-Kate.
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tomtom
Feb 10, 2007, 5:36 PM
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Going back to the original question, I haul my ledge in its bag from a catch line. My catch line is 6 mm perlon, tied to the ledge bag and clipped to the haul line powerpoint biner with a locker. The catch line is long enough that the top of the ledge bag hangs about 3 ft below the bottom of my haul bag. If hauling multiple ledges, they all hang at the same height. I don't clip the ledge bag to the bottom of the bag.
YMMV.
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yetanotherdave
Feb 11, 2007, 3:46 AM
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holdplease2 wrote: The only way to find out is to give it a go! ... The best is that you could report back to us metolius users a way to flag our ledges more securely, which would be cool. 
I have an indoor space where I can try stuff like this without the randomness of weather etc. getting in the way. I'll try flagging different ways and see if the ledge settles differently in each, and then I'll play with the diagonal strap idea.
While I'm comparing notes - do you use the suspension straps when flagging, or use other slingage to clip into the ledge frame? I've never found a biner big enough to clip the frame with directly...
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holdplease2
Feb 11, 2007, 3:37 PM
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Hey Dave:
I use some 1" nylon tape tied in probably 5 inch loops on the corners of my portaledge. These are permanent and I use them to clip in stuff at night and also to "anchor" the ledge if wind is going to get bad.
I put a biner on the two end and middle loops and put each of these biners on the haul line. The suspension is shortened, and the main powerpoint of the suspension is on a locker clipped to the haul line.
When going from "Flagged" to "Hanging at Anchor", I do this when the haul gets close to the anchor point. Grab the nearest corner of the ledge, clip a shoulder length runner to it, then clip this to a far point on the anchor.
Then I pull it up a littl emore, Clip in the main ledge powerpoint to the anchor, and stuff the ledge behind random crap, flat against the wall and finish the haul, dock the pigs.
When putting the ledge back in "flagged position" I wait until the leader has pulled the haul line kinda tight, then clip one corner of the ledge to the haul line, slide it up, clip the middle, then un-attach the thing from the anchor and clip in the final corner. Then I do the haul lower-out.
Hope this helps,
-Kate.
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