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Cheater stick design?
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sspssp


Feb 8, 2007, 3:58 PM
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Cheater stick design?
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I'm planning on making a cheater stick and I was looking for suggestions from any of you expert cheaters out there who are willing to confess to such a dastardly practice.

My current main partner won't consider hauling--so to get up ElCap routes, they will have to be done in a single push. So to speed things up, I would like something that is quick and easy to use when a fixed piece is maybe a foot or two out of reach (I'm not working on style points here). However, if I'm going to go to the trouble to carry a cheater stick up, it would be nice if it was long enough that if a fixed piece was missing/blown, I could reach through to the next piece.

Taping a biner to a four foot broom handle is not what I have in mind. I want something easy to carry on lead and quick to use (not to mention lightweight).

A search on this forum gave the suggestion of using an extendable treking pole. This is not a bad idea, but this seems heavier and beefier than really needed. I was contemplating using part of a tent pole (the collapseable type that has a shock chord inside).

The fixed pieces might be pins or wires at funny angles, so a short hook that could operate in tight spaces--maybe a Black Diamond Pecker hook? I've also been trying to figure out if it would be worth making the hook able to swivel so I could change the angle it makes with regard to the stick.

Any helpful hints?


hillbilly


Feb 8, 2007, 5:12 PM
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Re: [sspssp] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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howdy, i have chosen a telescopic golf ball retriever. It collapses to just over 2 feet but extends a full nine rigid feet. No wobble, easy to clip awkwardly place bolts. Standing in a long draw or high balling off the ground I can cover over 15 feet of worrisome r/x rated climbing. The velcro and channel of the epic stick clip even allows for simple gear placements. I can even hide it shamefully inside inside my pack. My long arm has allowed me to enjoy routes that sent harder climbers packing and soft minded limping. Tim


Partner holdplease2


Feb 8, 2007, 5:27 PM
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Re: [hillbilly] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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Use a fifi hook, the best is Kong.

If you use a pecker you risk cutting thin wires or nylon runners.

Keep in mind, though, that you are cheating your way up the route. The things I regret most in my climbing career include using a cheater stick.

When you aren't climbing the climbs, and claiming that you did will feel like a lie. That statement "anything goes, its aid climbing." is simply not true.

Also, if your goal is to speed-climb, and try to reach goals, then you are especailly cheating.

I'm just telling you this, not to criticise, but to tell you how it feels based on experience.

-Kate.


Partner holdplease2


Feb 8, 2007, 5:30 PM
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Re: [holdplease2] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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Also...you don't want to "cheat" by lifting the rope up on a draw, like you do on a sport climb. IF the piece you are on blows, you fall extra far.

You will want to have strong cord or a daisy, then you "climb" up this.

-Kate.


iamthewallress


Feb 8, 2007, 6:28 PM
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Re: [holdplease2] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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fwiw, I don't have any feelings of sadness, guilt, or self-doubt with respect to routes on which I've stick clipped. I can't erase the rest of my effort or the fun that I had because of a few moments spent groveling in 'poor' style.

I simply refuse prostrate myself to others who are ready to point out that I didn't really do a 7 day climb if 10 seconds of stick clipping was involved before they even ask if I enjoyed the climb. Sadly, there are people who seem almost compulsive about doing this as soon as they ask you what route you climbed. Then again, I'm not really trying to make "claims", and am operating from the point of view of someone whose record is unimpressive, thus the details of how badass I am or am not should not be terribly interesting to anyone including myself.

I wouldn't want bring an iron/head rack along for a day trip up a route that's generally known to be 100% fixed, but bringing something (i.e. a stick clip) to deal with missing gear is, IMO, responsible. Maybe if you're hoping to publish your results, you'll be better served to leave it at home.

If you need to bail, having a stick clip can be a god send for getting yourself pulled into the wall.

I'm probably not saying anything new here...that's why you asked about the stick clip.

I tend to use a sturdy tent pole with a fifi (mine is BD) taped onto the end and some sort of climbable nylon coming off of the hook. Lately, I've been limiting myself to one long peice of tent pole (i.e. no shock cord) as a reach equalizer, but my situations have been bailable.

I did manage the largest cheater rig of a tent pole I've ever seen on a recent bolt replacement effort. It wouldn't have worked if the rock was verticle or beyond as tent poles are pretty flexible. Rapping my ladders around the pole and giving it some tension helped me get the hook into the distant bolts.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 8, 2007, 6:37 PM)


summerprophet


Feb 8, 2007, 6:40 PM
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Re: [sspssp] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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I have a a SWEET cheat stick. I bought a cheap replacement tent pole, and cut each length down to 9" long. tightened the shockcord up so it holds itself together well and hoseclamped a clamp onto the end.
In short, total length is under a foot, total weight is around a pound.
It seems to work great when I test it.... but the best part of all, ...... I have never had to dig that puppy out of the bottom of the haul bag.

In my opinion, if you are climbing grade V or VI and aren't a regular wall pirate, you should have one along. Treat it like a first aid kit. You never wan't to use it, but it is there when you need it.

PS. If I was behind someone on a trade route in the valley, hanging out for an hour while they tried to bypass a blown piece without a clip. I would be pissed.

PSS. In all actuallity, the chances of finding impassable sections in the Valley are quite slim. (remember your cinch hangers and 2mm cord for rivets and swageless rurps)


iamthewallress


Feb 8, 2007, 6:50 PM
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Re: [summerprophet] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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summerprophet wrote:
PS. If I was behind someone on a trade route in the valley, hanging out for an hour while they tried to bypass a blown piece without a clip. I would be pissed.

What about getting behind someone who was spending an hour learning how to place heads on route (for you to use next!) 'cause they don't got no stick? Unsure


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 8, 2007, 6:51 PM)


cintune


Feb 8, 2007, 7:06 PM
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Re: [sspssp] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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Here's one you can make with coat hanger wire. Cheap, light, easy, disposable.
http://www.czechclimbing.com/clanek.php?key=5416


pmyche


Feb 8, 2007, 7:49 PM
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Partner holdplease2


Feb 8, 2007, 7:49 PM
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Oh yeah and...

If you're ultra short (as in under, say, 5.8) you should definately carry a reach extender. This isn't necessarilly for the cracks...where you can get gear anywhere.

Its for the rivit/bolt ladders and single rivits.

I recently climbed a route and used a cheat stick because when I was standing on the rivit intended to link to features, and the upper one was a roof, I couldn't even reach the lost arrow placement with the tip of a cam from my top steps.

Without a cheat stick, I would have had to drill. In fact, if there hadn't been another rivit 10 feet up, I would have had to drill, because I'm short.

One place I'll always use a cheat stick is if it means altering other peoples future climbing experience...as opposed to just compromising my own.

Don't laugh, but you should try this sometime. You get your "equalizer" cheat stick 'trapped' in your system on one bolt, but now you can't reach the next. And you can't get to your stick. I have an elaborate system for dealing with this, but frankly, it defies words. :)

FWIW.

-Kate.

(future tales to come...how Kate taped two tent poles together to stick clip the anchor behind texas flake in the middle of the night. All the while being seranaded by the guys on the radio with "The stars at night...are big and bright...deep in the heart of texas. I am not kidding, and its one of my best wall memories. Plus, I didn't die on 5.6 chimney, so it was a good call! )


Partner holdplease2


Feb 8, 2007, 8:02 PM
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Regarding fifis -

One thing to think about is that if the hook is too round, like the cassin, the "forehead" of the hook will push the wire out of hooking range before the "nose" can get into the hole on the cable.

Many fifis are designed like this because they make a more secure fifi attachement, less likely to fall off the piece.

The reason I carry the kong is because the fifi itself is more of a birdbeak shape...the nose can slide into the loop without any interference from the rest of the fifi.

I bailed off the same climb as Addiroids in the same spot due to the missing feature. To have weighted that tiny head without a bounce test or visual inspection could have been really really bad for the health. We're talking icky rivits over hooks/a few heads to a slab fall. And he already took a fall onto two equalized heads on the pitch. As he's my friend, I'm GLAD he couldn't stick clip that head. I saw it, too, had my stick clip, and decided NO way in Hell. :)

-Kate.


miavzero


Feb 8, 2007, 8:28 PM
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just wait until hans is trying to free the salathe, and jug his lines.


cintune


Feb 9, 2007, 6:43 AM
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Re: [pmyche] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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pmyche wrote:
Don't confuse a clip stick with a cheat stick.

- Oops, sorry. (Note to self: always check which forum you've wandered into....)


sspssp


Feb 9, 2007, 11:31 AM
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Re: [cintune] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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The golf ball extender sounds interesting, but I am guessing it is heavier.

I'm glad to hear some of you use tent poles. My partner thought a tent pole would break too easily.

I was worried about the BD Pecker cutting webbing. However, the fifi hooks I have (and the others I have seen) all had too narrow (and too deep) of openings. I didn't think they would work well. I was not aware of all the choices, so I will have to research that.

Do you find that you need to adjust the angle that the fifi hook makes? Or do you position it once and are good to go.

I'm not one to spray much about my accomplishments. If my current main partner would haul, I would do multi-day climbs (I've enjoyed the vertical camping in the past). Since he won't, and I'm not going to look elsewhere, I'm stuck with single push climbs. He is a strong free climber but we have done all of the long, "day", routes in Yosemite within our basic limits (Half Dome, Steck/Salathe etc), and neither of us are speed demons on aid.

So to do new routes, I am eyeing ElCap in a single push. If there were "easy" grade VIs (like Half Dome) on ElCap, I would do them without "cheating". However, the Nose in a day (or single push since it might well be more than 24 hours) is quite a step up. I'm sure even with a cheater stick, there will be plenty of climbing and adventure. I'm not going to brag about any time records.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Feb 9, 2007, 11:33 AM)


iamthewallress


Feb 9, 2007, 12:04 PM
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Re: [sspssp] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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I would forget about the cheat stick on the Nose as there is very little fixed gear to use it on (and much of the fixed gear is not mandatory). Plus Warren Harding was short, so his bolts tend to be accessable from the ladders.

I have had the shock cord come untied in my tent pole sending its peices to the deck. Go with burly cord and tie big fat knots in the end. The stick is just a back up though, so loosing it is usually not the end of the world except for the litter that you make.


pmyche


Feb 9, 2007, 1:04 PM
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stymingersfink


Feb 9, 2007, 5:50 PM
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J-rat has gotten into canyoneering, and as such has designed a handy little tool for getting out of potholes. He calls it the "Happy Hooker", and boy it's something.

It's made out of avalanche probe pole sections, with a large ibis hook bolted to the end. There is a swaged cable loop attached to the hook. The contraption comes in two sections... a ten foot section and an eight foot section. If it sounds flimsy, well, let's just say whiskey dick has got nothing on this thing. I clip a section of static rope to the swaged loop, and a little tension can help to guide the hook to your desired placement.

I carry it in my haul bag for emergency retreats, such that i may avoid down-aiding overhanging raps.

I had to rap off ZM on two seperate occasions, first from the top of P2, then from the top of p4. For the third (successful) attempt, I used the happy hooker to hook copperheads as far as I could reach, for the sole purpose of covering this ground already climbed as quickly as possible. Lukily it was late in the season so the heads were all pretty solid[;)

edit to add: this old thread has more details on the happy hooker


(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Feb 9, 2007, 5:59 PM)


sspssp


Feb 10, 2007, 3:54 PM
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Re: [pmyche] Cheater stick design? [In reply to]
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pmyche wrote:
I would not discount hauling as part of the in-a-push m.o. for longer routes. Some of the monsters do it this way, and I've found that hauling even a pack rather than jugging with it increases the fun, especially on the steeps.

Personally, I wouldn't discount hauling either for a in-a-push, but my partner has. So until/unless I end up climbing with someone else...


sspssp


Feb 10, 2007, 4:00 PM
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iamthewallress wrote:
I would forget about the cheat stick on the Nose as there is very little fixed gear to use it on (and much of the fixed gear is not mandatory).

Go with burly cord and tie big fat knots in the end.

I've climbed up to the stovelegs (just shy of dolt tower) a couple of times. We have made it through those pitches without a stick clip, but a stick clip would be quicker. There are numerous places (especially the pitches up to sickle) where you either have to do tricky (slow for me) aid, or somewhat burly free moves (sometimes off of somewhat manky fixed junk). For trying to climb the whole route, stick clipping and yarding up would save us time and endurance vs doing it all in "good style". Its not that I'm worried about mandatory aid--I just figure if I have somthing that is light and quick/easy enough to use, if I use it, say just a dozen times on the whole route, to skip either a hard free move or an akward aid move, I'm figuring it will be worth it. Even on a bolt ladder, if I could skip every other bolt (especially if the bolts are close together), it seems like I could save time (seconds add up). I try to plan as if things will go slower than I expect. If I just get up the thing once, I can always come back again.

But I thought the first thing to do was to build a stick clip and try it out (maybe on those pitches leading up to sickle).

Is the amount of fixed gear on the initial pitches that much of an exception compared to the rest of the Nose?

And if I go to the trouble to make something, I would like to be able to use in other places (assuming it doesn't collapse on me and end up as litter at the bottom...)

Oh, and thanks for all the replies/suggestions.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Feb 10, 2007, 4:11 PM)


iamthewallress


Feb 10, 2007, 7:10 PM
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If you're an efficient aid climber, stick clipping is often slower than making the placements, even fiddlely ones, if they are there to be made, especially on something like a bolt ladder. In the time that it takes you to wiggle a hook 10 feet out on a flexible tent pole into a hanger and then climb up a substandard rig to it where you'll then face the dilema of how you get your ladders into the bolt and the stick out, you're usually going to climb faster to just forget the stick. (Note the last issue as you will find that getting screwed by your stick clip is very often part of the price of using it.)

The stick really shines when you really can't get the placements or don't want to risk the free (as you mentioned at the bottom of the Nose) or when fixed gear is missing, and there is no clean alternative.

If your partner is willing to fix and fire from Sickle, the first 4 pitches are, IMO, the trickiest to aid and have the slickest free. There are often great wads of fixed cordage on p2 & P4 that you can yard your way along where some of the those who came before found the climbing inconveniently tricky.


sspssp


Feb 11, 2007, 2:16 PM
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iamthewallress wrote:
If you're an efficient aid climber, stick clipping is often slower than making the placements, even fiddlely ones, if they are there to be made, especially on something like a bolt ladder.

If your partner is willing to fix and fire from Sickle, the first 4 pitches are, IMO, the trickiest to aid and have the slickest free. There are often great wads of fixed cordage on p2 & P4 that you can yard your way along where some of the those who came before found the climbing inconveniently tricky.

The skipping bolts was an off the head comment. Later sitting on the couch, I was thinking that isn't going to save any time.

I lead P4 a couple of weeks ago (during the dry spell). I was expecting great wads of cordage, but the first pendulumn on the pitch was clean (P2 wasalso clean). Since I had never needed hooks before on these pitches, I didn't have a bat hook for the drilled hole (that is between the pin and the fixed stopper/smashy) and I didn't relish the disappearing stem off the manky pin to free climb up to the pendy point.

I was thinking, if I just had a stick clip...


(This post was edited by sspssp on Feb 11, 2007, 2:17 PM)


addiroids


Mar 6, 2007, 6:31 PM
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holdplease2 wrote:
As he's my friend, I'm GLAD he couldn't stick clip that head. I saw it, too, had my stick clip, and decided NO way in Hell. :)

-Kate.

Aww, we're friends? Seems like I made it up the rungs of the etrier in Kate's mind from "knuckle-dragging dofus" to "friend". Sweet, I'm totally psyched :)

And yeah, although I had clipped those three rivits before the blown feature, that g-damn wire on that head was like #2-ish. Dicey. Hey, I don't think about stuff like that and like analyze situations and fall length, but that would have been one bad bad bad fall. Maybe for my future children's sake I should start thinking instead of just trying all i'se gots to get to the fixed junk above the missing thing.

And SSPPSSPS - DUDE you need to find a different fucking climbing partner. If someone is too damn prissy to haul, then get rid of them. God that sounds weak. Listen to Mike, those guys who do shit in a day CAN because they save their strength in jugging by hauling, so they can zip to the belay and then haul while belaying.

KATE - will you do a wall with me? I ain't going to haul though. Or lead anything over A3+ (but you already knew that).

Paul


sspssp


Mar 9, 2007, 12:15 PM
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addiroids wrote:
And SSPPSSPS - DUDE you need to find a different fucking climbing partner. If someone is too damn prissy to haul, then get rid of them.

Well dude, if doing multi-day ascents becomes more important than the big walls we can do in a push [without hauling], than I suppose I Fucking will. Wink


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