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How strong is a tied daisy chain?
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jeremy11


Feb 17, 2007, 8:52 PM
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How strong is a tied daisy chain?
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I have used a daisy tied out of 1" tubular for a while since it is cheaper than sewn daisys and is stronger. but how much stronger is it? the overhands are getting loaded on the shelf which doesn't worry me at all, but I'm wondering how much stronger is it than sewn daisy pockets rated to 3 kn. (if I did lots of aid I'd get sewn ones for more efficient progression but I use this for everything.)
any actual real tests done on this?


majid_sabet


Feb 17, 2007, 10:33 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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jeremy11 wrote:
I have used a daisy tied out of 1" tubular for a while since it is cheaper than sewn daisys and is stronger. but how much stronger is it? the overhands are getting loaded on the shelf which doesn't worry me at all, but I'm wondering how much stronger is it than sewn daisy pockets rated to 3 kn. (if I did lots of aid I'd get sewn ones for more efficient progression but I use this for everything.)
any actual real tests done on this?

Some guys from Colorado did some drop testing on static material which included testing on daisy chain

There were like three items that survived this test.

One was the old school 1" daisy. I do have a set of skinny daisy chain but I am looking to change mine and get a 1 inch old school or make it myself.


metrogroaz


Feb 17, 2007, 10:41 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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there are all types of these questions on here......

WTF man if you arent comfortable on it, hanging from it, dying by it, then don't use it.

I personally have never heard of a daisy chain failure, and more so, never heard of gear failure in general (without user error) so don't worry bout it.

Of course there should be a matter of concern, but that should be more related to things you hear about or see, or in some remote situations, be privy to....

I don't find it likely, and your time spent making your own daisy would be wasted, think if a company is gonna make it, they are resposible for any screw up on thier part.............

*edited to not be a drunk moron*


(This post was edited by metrogroaz on Feb 17, 2007, 10:54 PM)


majid_sabet


Feb 17, 2007, 10:46 PM
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Re: [metrogroaz] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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metrogroaz wrote:
there are all types of these questions on here......

WTF man if you arent comfortable on it, hanging from it, dying by it, then don't use it.

I personally have never heard of a daisy chain failure, and more so, never heard of gear failure in general (without user error) so don't worry bout it.

they make the money, we spend it, hopefully a few of us get into the former as well.....

Well
You are very wrong. We do have a Climber right out of RC who her partner fell on daisy , she ended up very bad.

You may want to do little reserch here on RC, I am sure his name will show up some where.


Partner hosh


Feb 17, 2007, 11:15 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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from what you're saying sounds like the question is more like "which is stronger, tied knots or sewn pockets? I'd go with knots, but I'm no expert. I don't use Daisy chains at all. I've got a PAS and it suits me just fine.

hosh.


kristoffer


Feb 17, 2007, 11:26 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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jeremy, i wouldn’t so much worry about the strength of the daisy chain but more how you are using them.
When using daisy chains for aid climbing they are NEVER part of your “safety” system but only part of your “progress” system. So there for you should never worry about falling on them and having them fail...
If you do end up taking a daisy chain fall (static) it is almost always (99.9%) user error/bad technique.
The best way to keep from taking daisy chain falls is to test your new peace of gear, get on it and as soon as you have committed to that new peace unclip your lower aider/daisy PRONTO! Its only when people don’t unclip there daisy from the lower peace quick enough that they take daisy chain falls…
Sorry I couldn’t answer your question exactly to specification, but I don’t know what knot you used to tie your daisy chain, so I couldn’t tell you how strong it would be… just go and get a set of traditional sewn daisys, one fifi hook and call it business.

peace


nunatak


Feb 17, 2007, 11:36 PM
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Re: [hosh] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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I'm with hosh, and not just because he bought the PAS from me.
I got the new Sterling Ropes catalog today and they have a new sewn sling daisy chain. I think we are going to be seeing a lot more of this design and less traditional daisies.
The interesting question about the daisy vs the knot is that if the stitching fails on a loop you end up with a bigger loop (and probably some urine in your pants), but when the loop you have knotted fails the whole piece fails. Yes, no?


boz84


Feb 17, 2007, 11:51 PM
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Re: [nunatak] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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You are correct in saying that the main loop on the daisy (the whole thing should the clip loops all fail), is a full strength tied sling, rated to 22kN. Proper use of the daisy means not having to worry should it fail. An article in R&I (or was it Climbing?) not TOO long ago talked about short factor two falls onto static systems like a daist chain fall, and the damage they caused. Point of the matter is, dont take falls on your daisy, and youll never have to worry about the 3kN loops failing, but if they do, youre not going to see failure of the whole system.

The PAS is nice, but more bulky and more expensive. if you are using the PAS like a traditional Daisy is used, youre a fool, IMO. Just more Metolius "Are way is the safer way, so the better way, and give us more of your hardearned bills."
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jeremy11


Feb 18, 2007, 9:54 AM
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Re: [jeremy11] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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jeremy11 wrote:
I have used a daisy tied out of 1" tubular for a while since it is cheaper than sewn daisys and is stronger. but how much stronger is it? the overhands are getting loaded on the shelf

which doesn't worry me at all

, but I'm wondering how much stronger is it than sewn daisy pockets rated to 3 kn.

(if I did lots of aid I'd get sewn ones for more efficient progression but
I use this for everything.)


any actual real tests done on this?

to clarify my OP

I do use a hand tied daisy with a main loop tied via water knot, and pockets tied via overhands. I am totally comfortable using it and always stay clipped in to the end loop.

when I said I use it for everything, that means its main purpose is not in the aid system, it is a general tool for anchoring etc etc.

I clearly stated that I would get sewn daisys if doing lots of aid as a progression tool. so no I will not be going out and whipping factor 2's onto any kind of daisy, but when it is a part of my connection to an anchor its nice to know what its strength is.

MAKE SENSE??


tradrenn


Feb 18, 2007, 11:17 AM
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jeremy11 wrote:
When I said I use it for everything, that means its main purpose is not in the aid system, it is a general tool for anchoring etc etc.

I would suggest you rethink the idea of anchoring with DC. This shit is way to static.

Check this out:

cracklover wrote:
A friend of mine recently took a short daisy fall. Ripped out three pockets. Her back hasn't been the same since. It's bums me out, actually, but not nearly as much as it bums her out. At times she can't walk from the sciatica (sp?).

GO

In this thread.

WR


nunatak


Feb 18, 2007, 4:35 PM
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I don't think the original question had anything to do with taking a fall on this gear. I think the original post was about using the gear to clip yourself into an anchor or belay station. Am I right? That is what I use my daisy or PAS for. And you are all correct, you should not be taking falls on static systems.

I am also wondering why you should not use a PAS like a daisy? I know they are more expensive (as a gym owner and guide price usually is not a main factor) but i don't see how they are bulkier or not as useful? Just curious. Do you need a PAS? NO. Are they nice? I think so....

And to address the actual question asked: 1" tubular webbing with a couple of overhands in it should be plenty strong enough. Does anyone know what percentage of strength you loose by tying an overhand knot in a piece of webbing, and do you loose that amount of strength with every knot?


jeremy11


Feb 18, 2007, 7:50 PM
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nunatak wrote:
I think the original post was about using the gear to clip yourself into an anchor or belay station. Am I right?
-YES

That is what I use my daisy or PAS for. And you are all correct, you should not be taking falls on static systems.
-duh!Pirate

And to address the actual question asked: 1" tubular webbing with a couple of overhands in it should be plenty strong enough. Does anyone know what percentage of strength you loose by tying an overhand knot in a piece of webbing, and do you loose that amount of strength with every knot?

-finally someone with some observation skills!
I am just wondering how much strength is lost but I don't think that the strength reduction is multiplied by the number of knots, say a single overhand reduces strength. this link (a ways down)
http://www.xmission.com/...ull_tests_11_98.html shows water knots have a 36% strength reduction, and say I put only 3 overhands in a tied daisy then it would have zero strength.

loading on the shelf of the overhand knot is the main issue in question


stymingersfink


Feb 19, 2007, 6:09 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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knots will reduce the strength of the material it is tied in by a generally known amount, usually stated as a percentage of the original material strength.

if one were to tie the length of 1" sling with a theoretical strength of 10kN into a loop with a water knot, the reduction in strength using the value supplied above (36%) should give you a relative breaking strength of 6.4kN along that section of knotted sling.

If one were to tie that loop into several knots, the loop would only be as strong as the weakest knot involved in holding a load.

Some people still use tied daisies, and used properly within the limitations generalized about all life-critical equipment, do so safely. Why they do however is beyond me, what with the availability of sewn daisies being what it is.

The advantgage of sewn daisies (when not factoring in the cost) can be found in its clean profile (no bulky knots) and ease of use (the sewn pockets stay open under load).

Tied daisies, OTOH, will not have the problems that sewn daisies do with cross-clipping pockets resulting in possible death. (hence the PAS)


Personally, I use the stitched daisy.


jeremy11


Feb 19, 2007, 8:28 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
if one were to tie the length of 1" sling with a theoretical strength of 10kN into a loop with a water knot, the reduction in strength using the value supplied above (36%) should give you a relative breaking strength of 6.4kN along that section of knotted sling.

-why the 10kN rating for the tied webbing loop? don't you mean 17.8 kN which with a 36% strength reduction is (so it retains 64%) is 11.39 kN
either way, its stronger than a sewn daisy, although not nearly as slick.


The advantgage of sewn daisies (when not factoring in the cost) can be found in its clean profile (no bulky knots) and ease of use (the sewn pockets stay open under load).

--I tie mine with one side longer so one side stays open under load.

Tied daisies, OTOH, will not have the problems that sewn daisies do with cross-clipping pockets resulting in possible death. (hence the PAS)

--since it would be quite hard to fit a biner around an overhand cross-clip style...


Personally, I use the stitched daisy.


Partner euroford


Feb 20, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Re: [jeremy11] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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personally i use the adjustables for aiding, and i find the lower strength rating an asset. i hope if i was ever dumb enough to take a nasty daisy fall that sucker would break and let me fall on the rope.

the yates jobbers are rated at 1500lbs (or about 6.8kn), which i feel is strong enough to be reliable while hopefully weak enough to break if i'm afflicted with a moment of dumbness at the exact wrong time.


moof


Feb 20, 2007, 12:48 PM
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I'm an adjustable user.

Irregardless of what you plan an using, avoid using spectra, it has no stretch. If you do go for a daisy fall that 5-7% stretch of the nylon is better than 1-2% with spectra. For a tether at a rap station, or comfort at a belay station spectra is just fine, but don't fall on it.

Another good candidate for home daisies is 6 mm or so accessory cord. Again, not anchor stregth, but 7-8 kN with a knotted strength around 5 kN. Plenty for screwing around with, and less cluster than 1" webbing. YMMV, ONVIAS, FMOTSMNA, etc.


(This post was edited by moof on Feb 20, 2007, 3:02 PM)


Partner euroford


Feb 20, 2007, 12:54 PM
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Re: [moof] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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i like to think of the spectra jobbers as "human funkness device".


stymingersfink


Feb 20, 2007, 3:17 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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First off, might i suggest a different approach to your use of quotations when answering posts? This looks a little better and is much easier to read, don't you think?

jeremy11 wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
if one were to tie the length of 1" sling with a theoretical strength of 10kN into a loop with a water knot, the reduction in strength using the value supplied above (36%) should give you a relative breaking strength of 6.4kN along that section of knotted sling.

-why the 10kN rating for the tied webbing loop? don't you mean 17.8 kN which with a 36% strength reduction is (so it retains 64%) is 11.39 kN
either way, its stronger than a sewn daisy, although not nearly as slick.


Perhaps the webbing was flat rather than tubular. Perhaps the webbing I spoke of was made from bubble gum, in which case 10kN is not just theoretical, it's imaginary.

Please note: i said the 10kN was a THEORETICAL start point for the tied loop. Mostly because it is much easier to run percentages in my head on base-10 numbers when they are actually 10. Calling it 20kN might give someone the wrong idea, and of course it's always the wrong ideas which tend to stick in someone's memory.

jeremy11 wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
The advantage of sewn daisies (when not factoring in the cost) can be found in its clean profile (no bulky knots) and ease of use (the sewn pockets stay open under load).


--I tie mine with one side longer so one side stays open under load.

Tying the pockets such that they will remain clippable under load is definitely the smart way to do it.

jeremy11 wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
Tied daisies, OTOH, will not have the problems that sewn daisies do with cross-clipping pockets resulting in possible death. (hence the PAS)

--since it would be quite hard to fit a biner around an overhand cross-clip style...
Saying that the size of the knot makes it impossible to cross-clip the pockets doesn't really hold water. You see, the problem with sewn daisies is that it's easy to take a biner and clip two pockets anywhere along the chain, which could result in not actually being clipped in to anything when/if the bar-tacking between pockets rips under high loads. It is a lack of situational awareness which will get someone dead or wishing they were.

People don't cross-clip pockets on sewn daisies with the intent to hang it out there doing something risky. They do it because they don't recognize the danger they are exposing themselves to. It is possible to clip adjacent pockets in precisely the same manner with the daisy you seem to be using. The real reason I would not worry about cross-clipping pockets on a tied daisy is that since the pockets are actually TIED, one does not need to worry about ripping out a bar-tacked stitch. The knotted pocket is going to exceed the 2.5kN pocket rating of a sewn daisy.This doesn't mean that it's a good idea to build bad habits for yourself.

In fact all other things being equal, the knot would be the weak point of the tied daisy whether clipped or kNOT (pun intended). Such is the function of knots: they weaken the integrity of the original fiber, whether joining two ends together, or merely tied in the middle of a length.

The important thing IMHO, is to recognize what knot to use where, while factoring in things such as fiber strength, appropriateness, directionality and ease of use (tying/untying). Tied daisy, tied cordalette, tied in, tied whatever... know your knot and its weaknesses. Then you won't need to ask someone if what you are doing is safe or not, you'll already know.

Convenience of use however, is in the eye of the beer-holder.



stymingersfink wrote:
Personally, I STILL use the stitched daisy.


trenchdigger


Feb 20, 2007, 3:39 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
...
The knotted pocket is going to exceed the 2.5kN pocket rating of a sewn daisy.
...
Yes, I would agree. However, loading a tied daisy at a clipped pocket is essentially loading the overhand as an EDK. While I'd also presume it's stronger than an incorrectly clipped (across the bar tack) sewn daisy, nobody seems to know just how strong this knot is, nor the mode of failure (capsize vs. breaking). Those two things would need to be determined to judge the relative safety of a tied daisy.


stymingersfink


Feb 20, 2007, 4:51 PM
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you talking as a cross-clipped?

an edk capsizing along a webbing loop would act as a shock absorber of sorts, as long as it didn't roll completely off the end, at which point the biner would still be contained within the loop and clipped to the anchor.

The knot failing by breakage however, should be fairly easy to predict, given that one knows the rated strength of the original material and how much the knot will reduce this material's strength.

Back to our THEORETICAL 10kN material (and knots). Lets say you have joined it in a loop with a 65% efficient knot, thereby reducing the strength of the material 35%. When this loop is loaded with 10kN there are two strands to share the load, so each strand gets 5kN worth. Since the (thoeretical) knot will support 6.5kN, the knot is safe.

You then tie your pockets with a knot which is only 50% efficient, which would give you a rating on the piece of 50% of it's original value, regardless of which pocket you were to load. Now (the way I understand it), loading the piece with 10kN would put you over the threshold of safety. Not a good idea.


mental.physics


Mar 6, 2007, 1:34 PM
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Re: [nunatak] How strong is a tied daisy chain? [In reply to]
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nunatak wrote:
The interesting question about the daisy vs the knot is that if the stitching fails on a loop you end up with a bigger loop (and probably some urine in your pants), but when the loop you have knotted fails the whole piece fails. Yes, no?

A few weeks ago a buddy and I drop tested a spectra daisy for kicks. All the pockets blew out and then our test mass ripped right through the closed loop. So yes you end up with a larger loop but our test (all up to drop test specs made up by BC rescue folks) the bottom loop blew out as well. Scary! The kn rating on the spectra is for a slow pull test where spectra is damn strong. Unfortunately this is not how spectra is going to be loaded in real world scenario.

I feel a lot better about gear after I have tried to destroy it and failed. Im no genius in calculating theoretical loads and all that but im pretty decent at breaking things. I trust my testing more than some pencil pusher telling me something 'should' be safe.


coastal_climber


Mar 6, 2007, 2:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:

Some guys from Colorado did some drop testing on static material which included testing on daisy chain

That must have hurt.Cool


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