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adklimber
Feb 27, 2007, 4:54 PM
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If you have had a structured training program like Rockprodigy's periodization program or Fluxus' book The Self Coached Climber, what are your results?
This is not spraying if you are showing your improvement.
I am interested to see how many people stick with the programs and how many of us see results.
Do you see a major difference when training systemitically compared to "just climbing"?
Most of us are obsessed with improving and it might be to our benefit to be confident that these methods actually work.
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lena_chita
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Feb 27, 2007, 6:34 PM
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I have been training this winter (SCC), but I feel that I won't really know the "results" until I get back outside.
I do feel that I am getting better.
Specifically:
1. my endurance and stamina is much better now than it was 4 months ago. I can spend more time on the wall, especially overhanging wall, without geting pumped. My continuous-climbing level is up, I can do CIR (12 repeats with 2.5-3 min rest in between) on at least 5.10b. I feel that this is what has made a big difference for me in terms of onsighting routes, b/c now I have more time to figure out the moves and try various things.
2. I feel that I am better at slopers now than I was 4 months ago-- something that I identified as a weakness for me.
3. I have redpointed several routes in the 5.11 range that I feel I would not have been able to touch 6 months ago, and it took me less than 10 tries to do so.
But as to whether I see the difference betwen systematic training and just climibng... Well, if I had cloned myself at the beginning of the training ,and then had one copy of me go through training, and hte other copy just do the usual stuff, then I would have had perfect experiment to address that...
Sorry, didn't do that, so I can't really say how much better off or worse off I would have been otherwise.
In the end, it probably doesn't matter so much for me b.c I"m not some elite athlete... I just feel good and positive about what I'm doing now, and that's about it.
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overlord
Feb 28, 2007, 8:09 AM
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structured training seems to work for me, i can climb harder than i did before i started it.
but... i cant say if its the results of the structure itself or just the fact that i really do train regullary.
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rockprodigy
Feb 28, 2007, 6:52 PM
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lena_chita wrote: In the end, it probably doesn't matter so much for me b.c I"m not some elite athlete... I just feel good and positive about what I'm doing now, and that's about it.
I have to vigorously protest this statement. If any person is going to spend time doing something (in this case, training for climbing), then it is improtant to know that you are spend your time wisely. To say it doesn't matter for you, but does matter for an elite athlete is simply saying that the elite athlete's time is more valuable than yours. If anything the opposite is true. Elite athletes have all the time in the world to train...they could waste 90% of their time (and most elite climbers do), and still have plenty of time left to train. For us working chumps, it is that much more critical that we use our time wisely!
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adklimber
Feb 28, 2007, 9:37 PM
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lena_chita wrote: But as to whether I see the difference betwen systematic training and just climibng... Well, if I had cloned myself at the beginning of the training ,and then had one copy of me go through training, and hte other copy just do the usual stuff, then I would have had perfect experiment to address that... Sorry, didn't do that, so I can't really say how much better off or worse off I would have been otherwise.
lena,
I assumed you would think back to when you did not do a systematic training routine and maybe...just climbed, and then compare results.
cloning, rrrright.
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overlord
Mar 1, 2007, 8:38 AM
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adklimber wrote: lena_chita wrote: But as to whether I see the difference betwen systematic training and just climibng... Well, if I had cloned myself at the beginning of the training ,and then had one copy of me go through training, and hte other copy just do the usual stuff, then I would have had perfect experiment to address that... Sorry, didn't do that, so I can't really say how much better off or worse off I would have been otherwise. lena, I assumed you would think back to when you did not do a systematic training routine and maybe...just climbed, and then compare results. cloning, rrrright.
nope, those results are not comparable. you progress even if you do 'just climb', its the speed of the progress that is in question here. and to measure that you would need a control group. especially if you consider that power/endurance/powerendurance are just one side of the coin, a very large technique learning process is on the other.
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adklimber
Mar 1, 2007, 5:46 PM
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overlord wrote: adklimber wrote: lena_chita wrote: But as to whether I see the difference betwen systematic training and just climibng... Well, if I had cloned myself at the beginning of the training ,and then had one copy of me go through training, and hte other copy just do the usual stuff, then I would have had perfect experiment to address that... Sorry, didn't do that, so I can't really say how much better off or worse off I would have been otherwise. lena, I assumed you would think back to when you did not do a systematic training routine and maybe...just climbed, and then compare results. cloning, rrrright. nope, those results are not comparable. you progress even if you do 'just climb', its the speed of the progress that is in question here. and to measure that you would need a control group. especially if you consider that power/endurance/powerendurance are just one side of the coin, a very large technique learning process is on the other.
overlord and all,
First, a perfect controlled study would be near impossible. agreed...however,
What is the purpose of training if not to improve? It is important to make a distinction between when we train and when we do not.
Why would I not be able to tell if training has done anything to my climbing ability? Is everything by chance; intangible?
In any other sport, it would be ridiculous to consider not training in the off-season. Your "in-season" performance would be compromised significantly. However, in our sport we have the idea that how we schedule our time prior to this "in-season" is inconsequential.
It is interesting to me to see how many (or how few) actually believe and practice systematic training. I guess it is another example of how young our sport is.
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overlord
Mar 1, 2007, 5:48 PM
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well, i train systematically in the off-season, and i have noticed significant improvement.
but i cant say for sure if its due to the systematic training or just regular training. but, it works for me, so im sticking with it.
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adklimber
Mar 1, 2007, 6:19 PM
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overlord wrote: well, i train systematically in the off-season, and i have noticed significant improvement. but i cant say for sure if its due to the systematic training or just regular training. but, it works for me, so im sticking with it.
Would you mind being a little more specific on your "systematic training". When you say, "significant improvement", what does that look like; numbers?
One more thing, what do you define as "regular training"?
Thanks for your responses, I personally have only done one season of Rockprodigy's periodization and was able to jump a whole bouldering grade consistantly.
I spent last summer focusing on the SCC principles and was able to send harder than before and increased my onsight level.
However, I am fairly new to the sport so I am curious to see if this improvement continues at the same rate with training.
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overlord
Mar 1, 2007, 6:34 PM
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well...
systematic:
1. 4 weeks or so endurance
2. 3 weeks hypertrophy
3. 3 weeks max recruitment
4. 6 weeks power endurance
thats offcourse just a frame, i usually modify it a bit to meet whatever goals i have currently set myself.
regular:
3 or 4 times per week climbing specific excercise (either climbing or other training tools)
it started with 'performance rock climbing' and now ive upgraded it with what i have learned from 'the self coached climber'.
significant improvement. went from 6b to 7a in a year or so. and i dont mean max redpoint, i mean climbing level. as in, i used to send 6bs in a try or two, now i send most 7as i get on in a try or two (that was in the autumn, some in the winter, but i cant really judge my current climbing level (should be some 7french), and the last season was far from optimal). im hoping that i will be able to redpoint at least one 8a this year, but that remains to be seen.
the rate of improvement will decrease. youll have to work harder and harder to improve. thats mostly because youll also need to learn movement skills and those take a bit longer than strength and endurance.
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lena_chita
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Mar 1, 2007, 9:18 PM
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adklimber wrote: lena, I assumed you would think back to when you did not do a systematic training routine and maybe...just climbed, and then compare results. cloning, rrrright.
Well, I didn't climb all that long to have a good comparison maybe... and just like overlord said, simply climbing in the off season would offer some improvement, too.
Thinking back, 2 summers ago was the first time I climbed outside in a place where there were accepted ratings on routes (NRG). I have been climbing indoors for a few months and at a local crag with uncertain ratings before then. I top-roped 5.8 cleanly and toproped 5.9 with several "takes". I felt that it was at the limit of my climbing ability then.
A year later, after spending the winter just climbing 2x and then 3x a week in a gym, I have started lead-climbing outside. I planned to start with 5.7 and work my way up, but all the easy climbs were busy, so my first lead was a 5.9 and it felt hard, but I finished it (hangdog). I had a goal of leading a 5.10a cleanly by the end of the summer. I lead first 5.10a 3 weeks later and onsighted a (rather soft, IMO) 5.11a by the end of the summer, with enough 5.10 b/ds redpoints and some onsights in between to make me feel that i can call myself a 5.10 climber.
I do not expect to see the same grade-number improvement this time around, with or without training, so using past as comparison just wouldn't work.  If last year I improved from 5.9 to 5.11a with just climbing, then I could be climbing 5.13a this summer, and 5.15a next year, right? NOT! (...but I wish...)
What sort of improvement COULD I expect with just climbing? I can't know for sure, but looking around me, it seems that a lot of women who ARE just climbing get to the "5.10/easy 5.11" level and then stay there and don't get further improvement even after years of climbing.
What sort of improvement will I actually get this summer? Time will tell.
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organic
Mar 1, 2007, 10:42 PM
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rockprodigy wrote: lena_chita wrote: In the end, it probably doesn't matter so much for me b.c I"m not some elite athlete... I just feel good and positive about what I'm doing now, and that's about it. I have to vigorously protest this statement. If any person is going to spend time doing something (in this case, training for climbing), then it is improtant to know that you are spend your time wisely. To say it doesn't matter for you, but does matter for an elite athlete is simply saying that the elite athlete's time is more valuable than yours. If anything the opposite is true. Elite athletes have all the time in the world to train...they could waste 90% of their time (and most elite climbers do), and still have plenty of time left to train. For us working chumps, it is that much more critical that we use our time wisely!
I think sometimes though instead of training, people like to use that little time that they have for actual climbing. I train a little but it is not structured at all. I have never really met anyone who was on a consistent training schedule all the time so it is hard to compare yourself to.
I think that the most important thing is to be consistent whether you have a structured regime or not. Mostly maybe a structured regime just helps you to do that.
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lena_chita
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Mar 2, 2007, 4:27 PM
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rockprodigy wrote: lena_chita wrote: In the end, it probably doesn't matter so much for me b.c I"m not some elite athlete... I just feel good and positive about what I'm doing now, and that's about it. I have to vigorously protest this statement. If any person is going to spend time doing something (in this case, training for climbing), then it is improtant to know that you are spend your time wisely. To say it doesn't matter for you, but does matter for an elite athlete is simply saying that the elite athlete's time is more valuable than yours. If anything the opposite is true. Elite athletes have all the time in the world to train...they could waste 90% of their time (and most elite climbers do), and still have plenty of time left to train. For us working chumps, it is that much more critical that we use our time wisely!
I probably should have worded it differently. WHat I mean is that I am going with the training method that made sense to me and was fitting well into my schedule. The training I have settled on is most likely not an OPTIMAL training method for the best performance pay-off that I would have been following if I had all the time in the world and IF my star performance were critical for my continued status of elite athlete and sponsorship, etc.
But I feel that it IS optimal given my other commitments in life.
I can't make it to the gym 4 times a week so I make do with 3 times, and my training plan gets "modified" all the time when instead of a "rest day" I spend a night in the ER with a sick child and when a baby-sitter calls to cancel at the last moment.
In other words, I feel that i could have been performing better and improving faster if I were not restricted by "other things", but my life is what it is and I am happy with the improvement that I'm getting even if I feel that I theoretically have an ability to improve more than that... but THAT is what doesn't matter so much b/c I'm not an elite athlete.
Moreover, when I chose a training plan to follow I had no benefit of a coach, etc. If I were an elite athlete, it would have been worth paying for it, KWIM?
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mark29
Mar 7, 2007, 2:58 AM
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I started climbing ~1993. In 1995 I redpointed my first 5.11b. Five years later I was still at my limit on 5.11-. In march 2000 I got my first gym membership and started climbing essentially every other day, unless I was injured, which seemed to be every 3-4 months. As of early 2002, my hardest redpoint was 5.12a. I had improved significantly, "just climbing", but I ended every season with a serious finger injury, which was extremely frustrating. As a result, I was convinced by Rockprodigy to read PRC.
I became an obsessive training desciple. In spring 2003 I sent my first 13a, and I've now redpointed 13d. There is no doubt training works. I'm not special; I'm not a good athlete or talented in any way. I'm too short, too fat and going bald, past my prime. Yet I continue to improve (and I have the training logs to prove it).
So then, if its a sure-fire path to improvement, why doesn't everyone do it? Because it requires discipline, dedication, and mostly sacrifice -- sacrificing opportunities to actually go climbing.
There are other downsides to training that nobody talks about. Once you climb 2 number grades harder than your friends, you won't be able to go climbing together anymore. You'll have to hang out at stankpile crags like the Wicked Cave at Rifle and the Aggro Gully at Smith, and places like Red Rocks will begin to lose their luster. You may also become an unrestrained egomaniac, that resents all 'lesser' climbers (like your former partners).
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adklimber
Mar 7, 2007, 4:17 PM
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mark29,
that is some serious improvement, good job. It makes me want to go out and crimp on my door frame with 50lbs hanging from my harness...
The biggest thing for me is improving, but also keeping myself from those nasty tendon injuries that I always seem to get. If I don't train my crimp strength in a contolled environment my fingers are just not ready for those hard problems.
btw, I am not sure if I should respond to you...you are an elite, and I just down here, gazing up, and wishing that I too could be an untalented, unathletic, bald, fat guy, who surprises everyone at the crag with 5.13 sending abilities while simultanously showing plumbers crack to all...
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mark29
Mar 7, 2007, 10:02 PM
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I began training (hangboarding) once I realized it was the only effective way to re-hab my A2 pulley injuries, and to prevent similar injuries in the future. Just as you said, its a controlled stress environment, and that is key. I think I would have been content to climb 12- for a long time, but I was really sick of the injuries. When I started training, the injuries stopped, but athe massive improvement was an unexpected side effect that got me hooked.
I truly believe I'm not elite, and if I can do this, anyone can. In my mind, someone who had elite talent would climb at or above my level with no training whatsoever, as many folks do. Of course, in the movie "Without Limits" about the life of runner Steve Prefontaine, Pre's coach (Bill BOwerman) tells him: "Your greatest vanity is your belief that you have no talent"
So maybe I am really talented, but my ego has decided to believe that I'm not. This way I can make myself out to be someone who works really hard, has a great deal of knowledge about training, and overcomes great obstacles in the face of tremendous adversity. Either way I win!
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lemon_boy
Mar 7, 2007, 10:34 PM
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mark,
when you train on your hangboard, do you ever train crimp positions, or do you just do open hand/finger? thanks for the motivational speech. i have been training in the climbing gym for the last 2 to 3 months, and i can definitely tell that the absence of hangboard work is hurting me strength-wise. i am going to start incorporating it into my gym routine. i think a good way to do this will be to do my hangboard workout, then go to the gym and do a CIR workout (15 routes at a fairly easy level) once a week.
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bbirtle
Mar 8, 2007, 4:16 PM
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Interesting thread I missed until just now - hope it stays alive.
I guess I'm currently in the control group - those that "just climb" but do so consistently and often.
I am considering modifying this regime so this is not to say my way is correct. I can't clone myself to see what it would have been like to do the training instead but here's my results so far:
Baseline (2004): rpt=6a, os=5+
Winter 2004/5 (~4 months in the gym, ~3 nights/week, ~3 hours "just climbing" each time): rpt=6b, os=6a
Fall 2005 (after about 60 days of outdoor "just climbing" sport): rpt=6c+, os=6c
Winter 2005/6 (~6 months in the gym, ~3 nights/week, ~3 hours "just climbing" each time): rpt=6c+, os=6c (!!!)
Summer/Fall 2006 (after about 60 days of outdoor "just climbing" sport): rpt=7a+, os=6c
Winter 2006/7 (~2 months so far, ~3 nights/week, ~3 hours "just climbing" each time): rpt=7b, os=6c+
Winter 2005/6 was depressing because I didn't seem to improve gradewise, although I felt a ton stronger by the end.
The big question, as already stated, is can being "on a program" make for more rapid improvement, better prevent injuries, etc then not?
And another question is, assuming the improvement is more rapid, is cutting out something I love doing for something I hate doing worth it for the speed increase?
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jt512
Mar 8, 2007, 4:46 PM
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bbirtle wrote: Interesting thread I missed until just now - hope it stays alive. I guess I'm currently in the control group - those that "just climb" but do so consistently and often. I am considering modifying this regime so this is not to say my way is correct. I can't clone myself to see what it would have been like to do the training instead but here's my results so far: Baseline (2004): rpt=6a, os=5+ Winter 2004/5 (~4 months in the gym, ~3 nights/week, ~3 hours "just climbing" each time): rpt=6b, os=6a Fall 2005 (after about 60 days of outdoor "just climbing" sport): rpt=6c+, os=6c Winter 2005/6 (~6 months in the gym, ~3 nights/week, ~3 hours "just climbing" each time): rpt=6c+, os=6c (!!!) Summer/Fall 2006 (after about 60 days of outdoor "just climbing" sport): rpt=7a+, os=6c Winter 2006/7 (~2 months so far, ~3 nights/week, ~3 hours "just climbing" each time): rpt=7b, os=6c+ Winter 2005/6 was depressing because I didn't seem to improve gradewise, although I felt a ton stronger by the end. The big question, as already stated, is can being "on a program" make for more rapid improvement, better prevent injuries, etc then not? And another question is, assuming the improvement is more rapid, is cutting out something I love doing for something I hate doing worth it for the speed increase?
If you follow the training principles in the Self-Coached Climber, you won't be giving up much of what you love. You just spend your climbing time more productively. You improve the quality of your movement by doing climbing exercises; your strength and power-endurance by structured bouldering sessions; your endurance by structured route climbing and traversing; and you increase you redpoint level using targeted route pyramids. You may find that by training you are doing more of what you love rather than less.
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adklimber
Sep 11, 2007, 4:05 PM
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Results from last spring's periodization: Sent two boulder problems that are one grade harder than my previous best. Also sent a variety of problems that were not in my style at lower grades.
This improvement was really good, for me.
In the summer I consentrated on a movement (SCC) based training program and increased my sport onsight level one letter grade.
I am currently in the middle of my third periodization program that looks like this:
4 weeks hyp: hangboard - weighted hangs (JTO's recommendation)
2 weeks Max R. - campusing
2 weeks - Finish boulder projects
2 weeks - Finish Sport projects
5 weeks of training - 2 training day's, 1 moderate trad day, and one bouldering circuit day each week. Throughout the training I am still on the rock training movement, however, I make sure not to tap into the anaerobic endurance (sticking with slabs, cracks, OW's, etc.). This would compromise the power I desire for the peak.
This is the first time I will try to end with sport climbing. I will have to find something that is hard, but also, not too "endurency" since I am focusing on power...we'll see.
Who else is training systematically??? Results?!!?
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angry
Sep 11, 2007, 4:17 PM
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I climb year round. All styles, always trying my best. In all, SCC was completely useless to me.
I greatly enjoyed the chapters on climbing kinesiology, they were great. Would have been even cooler if he pulled some really scientific stuff of moment of inertia, force, and specific muscles. Oh well, that's just my nerd side.
Back to training though, I think the program outlined in the SCC would be fantastic at improving sport climbing through the use of a gym. Beyond that, I don't go to any areas with a density of routes that in any way could get me what this book describes.
I give it a 10 for idea.
I give it a 1 for practical application.
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adklimber
Sep 11, 2007, 5:03 PM
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angry wrote: Back to training though, I think the program outlined in the SCC would be fantastic at improving sport climbing through the use of a gym. Beyond that, I don't go to any areas with a density of routes that in any way could get me what this book describes.
So, why not use a gym? I am guessing you are not interested in sport climbing?
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angry
Sep 11, 2007, 5:08 PM
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I sport climb when I'm crunched for time or when I'm shot. I fortunately have lots of trad partners and trad projects.
Just because I'm climbing cracks though doesn't mean I'm not looking to improve. The methodology outlined in the SCC just doesn't fit too well.
The old standby of bouldering and endurance climbing, working a hard project, and putting up ropes for people as endurance is really the only workable model for me.
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adklimber
Dec 11, 2007, 8:42 PM
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Results from this fall periodization: Sent two boulder problems that are one grade harder than my previous best. Also sent a variety of problems that were not in my style at lower grades.
This improvement was really good, for me. I have actually gone one bouldering grade up with each season I've trained. I am currently bouldering 4 grades harder than I was 2 years ago. I do not expect this kind of improvement every season, I'll probably focus more on volume this upcoming spring.
This is what I did for periodization:
3 weeks hyp: hangboard - weighted hangs (JTO's recommendation)
3 weeks Max R. - campusing - focused on small rungs for everything.
I am resting right now, and plan on doing another 6weeks of periodization for the spring. Until then I will be gym climbing and focusing on SCC movement. The summer will be here soon and sport climbing is my choice then.
Who else is training systematically??? Results?!!?
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texasclimber
Dec 11, 2007, 10:29 PM
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I have been working with the self-coached climber book and have liked what I have seen. By focusing on a route pyramid, I think that has been very helpful for me to bump up my climbing grades. I started in the lower 5.10s and now I am working on 5.11b after 3 weeks. Keep in mind that I took a couple years off climbing before this book (where I previously could climb 5.11 solidly) and that is one reason why I think that I am improving so fast. Bottom line, if you are serious about becoming a better climber, focusing on it is going to help. More specifically, focusing on your weaknesses will help you a bunch. For me, that is my constant climbing level, or endurance. For my wife, it is her movement and strength. We are focusing accordingly and noticing a great difference. Good luck.
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