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lwink


Feb 28, 2007, 10:17 PM
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daisy chains
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These little guys are mysterious to me -- I've used them just a bit in some training and was taught proper clipping technique for them, but in what situations are they used when climbing?


my_name_is_fake


Feb 28, 2007, 10:51 PM
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Re: [lwink] daisy chains [In reply to]
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i use them for sport(lead) climbing, when hooking myself up to the anchor ( as a secondary/redundant chain), just because i dont want to leave my quickdraws up there. ( referring to outdoor climbs).


granite_grrl


Mar 1, 2007, 5:00 AM
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Re: [my_name_is_fake] daisy chains [In reply to]
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Outside - a lot of people use them. I tried and I didn't like it. I'd rather just use a sling that I already have on my harness.


uasunflower


Mar 1, 2007, 6:05 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] daisy chains [In reply to]
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they are very useful, especially for aid climbnig as you can easily adjust their length to jumars.


redpoint73


Mar 1, 2007, 6:20 AM
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Re: [uasunflower] daisy chains [In reply to]
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Daisy chains are for aid. Period. They are for adjusting your length to a piece of pro so you can hang on it. They also connect you to your ascenders when you are jugging.

Many people still use daisies to hook into an anchor while sport or trad climbing. This is becoming an outdated technique b/c daisies are not safe for this. The individual loops will fail at just a few hundred pounds of force, and once they do, the runner material is compromised from the stitches tearing out, so the full runner strength is no good as well.

You can do a forum search for more info on daisy chains, as the topic has been covered numerous times.


Partner jammer


Mar 1, 2007, 7:45 AM
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Re: [redpoint73] daisy chains [In reply to]
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redpoint73 wrote:
This is becoming an outdated technique b/c daisies are not safe for this. The individual loops will fail at just a few hundred pounds of force, and once they do, the runner material is compromised from the stitches tearing out, so the full runner strength is no good as well

Good reason to have a personal anchor system instead. There are less loops to adjust by, but they are solid.


rockrat_co


Mar 1, 2007, 8:00 AM
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Re: [jammer] daisy chains [In reply to]
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Seems like the daisy chain would be more "useful", perhaps in situations entailing aid climbing (where it is a luxury to be able to have more specific adjustment in how high you wanna be hanging. In sport situations or toproping (for cleaning or setting anchors) I'm with everyone else in saying use a PAS or simply a runner.

Climb High & Live Long!

rockrat_co

Do Not Lower Through The Anchors!!!


diophantus


Mar 1, 2007, 8:44 AM
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Re: [redpoint73] daisy chains [In reply to]
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redpoint73 wrote:

Many people still use daisies to hook into an anchor while sport or trad climbing. This is becoming an outdated technique b/c daisies are not safe for this. The individual loops will fail at just a few hundred pounds of force, and once they do, the runner material is compromised from the stitches tearing out, so the full runner strength is no good as well.

I like my daisy, I use it for this all the time on single pitch climbs for cleaning an anchor. I always tie in with the climbing rope to my master point though. And since I'm not taking falls on my daisy I'm not worried about the pockets failing. If you think it's safe to take a small fall on a regular runner but not a daisy then I think you are mistaken.


(This post was edited by diophantus on Mar 1, 2007, 9:21 AM)


kevinwaldock


Mar 1, 2007, 9:25 AM
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Re: [diophantus] daisy chains [In reply to]
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i got one for x-mas and have found it is kick ass as a over the shoulder gear sling while trad climbing then it's their if you need to french free something or whatever. However i don't like the skinny spectra daisy's they look weak ande unredundant in fact i don't have spectra anything different storkes for different folks i guess


jakedatc


Mar 1, 2007, 11:01 AM
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Re: [diophantus] daisy chains [In reply to]
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nylon daisy from Metolius
Strength: •End-to-end--2475 lbf (11 kN) •Pocket--300 lbf (1.3 kN)
INDIVIDUAL POCKETS FOR BODYWEIGHT ONLY!

spectra daisy
Strength: •End-to-end--3500 lbf (15.5 kN) •Pocket--300 lbf (1.3 kN)
(stronger.. not sure why the one guy is more nervous about them and other spectra things which are the same strength only lighter..)

triple tacked.. so when that pocket rips from taking a short fall on to it then all that space where the sewing is gets messed up. not warm and fuzzy for me. for sport i have a 24" sling on a biner that i girth to my harness if i need it.. trad i use the rope and then whatever sling i need for a back up

didn't PTPP break his leg due to a short fall onto a daisy.. hmm


summerprophet


Mar 1, 2007, 11:15 AM
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Re: [diophantus] daisy chains [In reply to]
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Diophantus,
it would be in your best interest to see this video from Black Diamond if you continue to use you daisy chain for personal protection.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/videos/daisy.html


redpoint73


Mar 1, 2007, 11:41 AM
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Re: [diophantus] daisy chains [In reply to]
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diophantus wrote:
redpoint73 wrote:

Many people still use daisies to hook into an anchor while sport or trad climbing. This is becoming an outdated technique b/c daisies are not safe for this. The individual loops will fail at just a few hundred pounds of force, and once they do, the runner material is compromised from the stitches tearing out, so the full runner strength is no good as well.

I like my daisy, I use it for this all the time on single pitch climbs for cleaning an anchor. I always tie in with the climbing rope to my master point though. And since I'm not taking falls on my daisy I'm not worried about the pockets failing. If you think it's safe to take a small fall on a regular runner but not a daisy then I think you are mistaken.

Did I say that its okay to take a small fall on a regular runner? NOPE.

In fact, I've personally made several posts on these forums about the dangers of clipping into the anchors with static material while cleaning a sport anchor. Namely, the climber that died last year at Red River Gorge. He was clipped in with a quickdraw(s?), broke it and decked.

Which brings up an important point. Nobody PLANS to take a fall while clipped direct and cleaning. But the possibility exists, and thats reason enough to rethink using a daisy for this purpose. If you stay clipped into the rope as a backup, fine. Just as long as you are aware that forces can be generated while cleaning the anchor that can break a draw or daisy. And the breakage will happen at a much lower force w. the daisy.


Partner cracklover


Mar 1, 2007, 11:44 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] daisy chains [In reply to]
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They're for aid climbing and other specialty stuff.

Friend of mine messed up her back pretty good taking a short fall on a daisy.

GO


diophantus


Mar 1, 2007, 11:52 AM
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Re: [summerprophet] daisy chains [In reply to]
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summerprophet wrote:
Diophantus,
it would be in your best interest to see this video from Black Diamond if you continue to use you daisy chain for personal protection.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/videos/daisy.html

For starters I've seen the video, and I have never used my daisy to short clip into the anchor. As long as you use the daisy correct the problem the video highlights will never happen. If you watch the full video you'll see the correct way to use a daisy.

I also said use the rope to my master point, so I am not relying solely on my daisy. I don't agree with the blanket statement that daisy chains are always unsafe to use for trad or sport climbing, it depends on the situation. I've used most of the methods people recommend, double slings, quickdraws, etc... but when it's safe to use I prefer my daisy. I never said people should use a daisy because it is always okay, I just said I like mine, but I always use the rope with my daisy.


diophantus


Mar 1, 2007, 11:53 AM
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Re: [cracklover] daisy chains [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
They're for aid climbing and other specialty stuff.

Friend of mine messed up her back pretty good taking a short fall on a daisy.

GO

That can happen with any static system, not just daisy chains.


rockguide


Mar 1, 2007, 11:55 AM
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Re: [diophantus] daisy chains [In reply to]
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diophantus wrote:
redpoint73 wrote:

Many people still use daisies to hook into an anchor while sport or trad climbing. This is becoming an outdated technique b/c daisies are not safe for this. The individual loops will fail at just a few hundred pounds of force, and once they do, the runner material is compromised from the stitches tearing out, so the full runner strength is no good as well.

I like my daisy, I use it for this all the time on single pitch climbs for cleaning an anchor. I always tie in with the climbing rope to my master point though. And since I'm not taking falls on my daisy I'm not worried about the pockets failing. If you think it's safe to take a small fall on a regular runner but not a daisy then I think you are mistaken.

Although the end to end strength of a daisy is the same as a runner (and both can be used as a tether from the harness to the piece to hang) tethers do not take falls well - they are static.

A runner protecting the lead will be strong enough to take the fall, but the rope from the belayer to the climber's body stretches and reduces the forces experienced by the climber's body (and the piece of protection) to something survivable.

A ten foot fall with the dynamics of the rope in the system (especially if through a piece of protection and down to the belayer) is survivable. A ten foot fall caught by a static system is not.


lena_chita
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Mar 1, 2007, 11:58 AM
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Re: [redpoint73] daisy chains [In reply to]
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I'm a bit confused: WHY is it O.K. for an aid climber to hang on the daisy chain without being particularly worried about it's failure, but not for the sport climber to do the same while cleaning the anchor?

I have used slings, quickdraws or daisy chains for cleaning. I agree that daisy chais are not necessary for sport climbing, but I do like daisy chains b/c of the adjustability.

The way I do it, regardless of whether I use slings or daisies, is to WEIGH them once I clip into 2 anchors and before untying my rope... There is no possibility of fall onto the daisy chain or the sling b/c I'm already hanging on it with my full weight before I untie the rope... How is this situation different from the aid climber hanging on his daisy?


reno


Mar 1, 2007, 12:02 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] daisy chains [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
I'm a bit confused: WHY is it O.K. for an aid climber to hang on the daisy chain without being particularly worried about it's failure, but not for the sport climber to do the same while cleaning the anchor?

When the sport climber does it, he/she usually unties, threads through the links of the anchor, and reties. Thus, for a time, the climber is not connected to the rope.

Not the case for an aid climber.


shimanilami


Mar 1, 2007, 12:13 PM
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Re: [lwink] daisy chains [In reply to]
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lwink wrote:
These little guys are mysterious to me -- I've used them just a bit in some training and was taught proper clipping technique for them, but in what situations are they used when climbing?

I commend you. That was a great troll!


lena_chita
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Mar 1, 2007, 12:17 PM
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Re: [reno] daisy chains [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
I'm a bit confused: WHY is it O.K. for an aid climber to hang on the daisy chain without being particularly worried about it's failure, but not for the sport climber to do the same while cleaning the anchor?

When the sport climber does it, he/she usually unties, threads through the links of the anchor, and reties. Thus, for a time, the climber is not connected to the rope.

Not the case for an aid climber.

Well, obviously :)

What I was trying to say, an aid climber usually weighs his daisy chains, instead of using them as a protection in case of fall as a sport climber uses quickdraws (the quickdraws are not weighted until the fall happens and when that happens the forces can be quite large)-- So if you are cleaning anchor and wiegh the daisies right from the start, instead of using them as a back-up to catch your fall, then they are plenty strong and safe to use, right?


jakedatc


Mar 1, 2007, 12:27 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] daisy chains [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Although the end to end strength of a daisy is the same as a runner

umm not true.. Spectra slings go at 22kn metolius site has the nylon daisy at 11kn spectra at 15.5kn

http://metoliusclimbing.com/daisynyl-spec.htm


Redpoint you can only try so hard man..


bbentley77


Mar 1, 2007, 12:38 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] daisy chains [In reply to]
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In reply to:
What I was trying to say, an aid climber usually weighs his daisy chains, instead of using them as a protection in case of fall as a sport climber uses quickdraws (the quickdraws are not weighted until the fall happens and when that happens the forces can be quite large)-- So if you are cleaning anchor and wiegh the daisies right from the start, instead of using them as a back-up to catch your fall, then they are plenty strong and safe to use, right?

That’s what I thought. As long as you don't go taking the weight off the anchor to make that big reach for a piece of pro, you SHOULD be ok. I guess I could see people getting lazy and not readjusting as needed to make the reach, thinking "they're not gonna fall". So I guess it's just a redundancy issue.


(This post was edited by bbentley77 on Mar 1, 2007, 12:38 PM)


Partner j_ung


Mar 1, 2007, 1:00 PM
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Re: [redpoint73] daisy chains [In reply to]
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Low daisy loop strength ratings plus the Daisy Death Trick plus the Human Funkness Affect compel me to steer well clear of daisies for everything except aid climbing. If, however, you understand those dangers and how to account for them, then far be it from me to tell you what you should and shouldn't do with your daisy chains. Have at it.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Mar 1, 2007, 1:01 PM)


redpoint73


Mar 1, 2007, 1:07 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] daisy chains [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
Although the end to end strength of a daisy is the same as a runner

umm not true.. Spectra slings go at 22kn metolius site has the nylon daisy at 11kn spectra at 15.5kn

http://metoliusclimbing.com/daisynyl-spec.htm


Not to mention, I believe the end-to-end strength rating of the daisy is obtained by attaching each end of the daisy to the test rig and pulling while it is fully extended. This situation just about never happens in real life. If you are using a daisy fully extended, why use it at all? IRL, you will be clipped in short and weight the pockets. When the pockets fail, the bar tacked tear a big whole in the runner material, so once the daisy extends to its full length, several holes will have compromised the runner. See the post from the BD guy below. A daisy that fails this way is NOT the same strength as a runner.


Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Email: chrish@bdel.com
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing

Daisy's are weaker than runners because, as the pockets rip out, damage to
the webbing occurs at the pocket tacks. In static testing the pockets rip
out until you are in the standard runner configuration. The web breaks at
the damaged area of one of the pocket tacks.

In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright
without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor
2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the
slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not
stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and
use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability.



lena_chita wrote:
So if you are cleaning anchor and wiegh the daisies right from the start, instead of using them as a back-up to catch your fall, then they are plenty strong and safe to use, right?

The main issue is if you need to step up for any reason and unweight the daisy, and you are not standing on a ledge. You can slip, fall and load the daisy with more than bodyweight. Its usually not necessary to climb above the anchor, But I've had to do it. It happens, and people have died doing it. See my post above:

In reply to:
In fact, I've personally made several posts on these forums about the dangers of clipping into the anchors with static material while cleaning a sport anchor. Namely, the climber that died last year at Red River Gorge. He was clipped in with a quickdraw(s?), broke it and decked.

Which brings up an important point. Nobody PLANS to take a fall while clipped direct and cleaning. But the possibility exists


(This post was edited by redpoint73 on Mar 1, 2007, 1:08 PM)


diophantus


Mar 1, 2007, 1:48 PM
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Re: [redpoint73] daisy chains [In reply to]
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redpoint73 wrote:

Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Email: chrish@bdel.com
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing

In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright
without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor
2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the
slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not
stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and
use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability
.



The main issue is if you need to step up for any reason and unweight the daisy, and you are not standing on a ledge. You can slip, fall and load the daisy with more than bodyweight. Its usually not necessary to climb above the anchor, But I've had to do it. It happens, and people have died doing it. See my post above:

I'm gonna guess that those people weren't using their ropes for part of their rig. But anyway, not telling people how to rig their system, just saying I like my daisy for some situations.


(This post was edited by diophantus on Mar 1, 2007, 2:06 PM)

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