|
ja1484
Mar 1, 2007, 10:40 PM
Post #27 of 46
(1545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 1935
|
Daisy Chains are mostly used for attaching one thing to another thing, if I recall correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Mar 2, 2007, 12:02 AM
Post #28 of 46
(1537 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
lena_chita wrote: I'm a bit confused: WHY is it O.K. for an aid climber to hang on the daisy chain without being particularly worried about it's failure, but not for the sport climber to do the same
Aid climbers have stones....duh.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Mar 2, 2007, 12:38 AM
Post #29 of 46
(1528 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
diophantus wrote: cracklover wrote: They're for aid climbing and other specialty stuff. Friend of mine messed up her back pretty good taking a short fall on a daisy. GO That can happen with any static system, not just daisy chains.
Yup. I don't think any static system should replace the rope as the primary weight-bearing connection between the climber and the anchor. The daisy chain is just a particularly bad one (for reasons Jake pointed out).
lena_chita wrote: I'm a bit confused: WHY is it O.K. for an aid climber to hang on the daisy chain without being particularly worried about it's failure, but not for the sport climber to do the same while cleaning the anchor?
I cannot speak for all the aid systems out there, just for mine. Two issues
1: in aid climbing, attaching yourself at various distances from each piece is a crucial element in the process of making upward progress on each and every piece. Fast adjustability is key, and comes with tradeoffs. This is not so when you're anchoring in. Anchoring in only needs to be done once per pitch, and the clove hitch on the tie-in rope provides adequate adjustability for this purpose.
2: The aid climber is typically attached to the current piece via three points, an aider on each foot, and a daisy. The aiders allow the climber to move up, and the main thing the daisy does is to allow the climber to free up their hands without falling over backwards. So the connection from piece -> daisy -> harness is always tensioned when it's connected. As long as it's tensioned, a fall on it cannot happen, and it's the fall that risks bad things happening.
In addition, daisies are used for jugging up the pitch to clean the gear, but there's no issues there.
In reply to: I have used slings, quickdraws or daisy chains for cleaning. I agree that daisy chais are not necessary for sport climbing, but I do like daisy chains b/c of the adjustability.
How do you use them for cleaning? Yes, daisy chains give good adjustability. The issue is when and how is this adjustability appropriate, and how to avoid doing anything that might make a fall of more than an inch or two possible.
In reply to: The way I do it, regardless of whether I use slings or daisies, is to WEIGH them once I clip into 2 anchors and before untying my rope... There is no possibility of fall onto the daisy chain or the sling b/c I'm already hanging on it with my full weight before I untie the rope... How is this situation different from the aid climber hanging on his daisy?
It's not, assuming you don't ever need to step up to deal with something. Personally, I want an anchor system where if I want to do something as simple as step up to grab my water bottle from a ledge, I don't have to worry that if my foot slips, I could get seriously and debilitating injury, ending my climbing and changing my life. A slightly easier adjustability than a clove hitch isn't worth it.
And if you're not talking about belaying off them, but just temporarily hanging from them while you put the rope through the anchors, preparatory to rapping, I think that's fine. I just don't want to haul an extra two otherwise useless pieces of gear around when I'm sport climbing.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
coastal_climber
Mar 2, 2007, 5:24 AM
Post #30 of 46
(1505 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 2542
|
lena_chita wrote: I'm a bit confused: WHY is it O.K. for an aid climber to hang on the daisy chain without being particularly worried about it's failure, but not for the sport climber to do the same
Aid climbers rest on the daisy chain, sport and trad puts a lot of force on it when used as belay attachment.
>Cam
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Mar 2, 2007, 4:03 PM
Post #31 of 46
(1481 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
diophantus wrote: redpoint73 wrote: Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Email: chrish@bdel.com
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing
In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright
without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor
2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the
slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not
stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and
use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability. The main issue is if you need to step up for any reason and unweight the daisy, and you are not standing on a ledge. You can slip, fall and load the daisy with more than bodyweight. Its usually not necessary to climb above the anchor, But I've had to do it. It happens, and people have died doing it. See my post above: I'm gonna guess that those people weren't using their ropes for part of their rig. But anyway, not telling people how to rig their system, just saying I like my daisy for some situations.
You are correct. Its happened in one specific case that I know of, the one at the Red that I already mentioned. Not a case where a daisy chain was used (it was a quickdraw), but I gave it as an example of a case where falling on static material can happen when you clean the anchor and don't "expect" it. I threw this point out b/c some people on this thread seem to have the notion that its impossible to fall and subject the anchor to more than bodyweight load when you are cleaning a sport anchor.
The person in the example must have shortcutted something. Either he was threading the rope w/o first clipping the rope to his harness at all, or he clipped it to his gear loop (either by mistake for laziness). Or, he could have been threading the rope for rappel. This is not typical practice for sport climbs at the Red, but possible if he was trying to minimize wear on the chains or some other reason.
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Mar 2, 2007, 4:08 PM
Post #32 of 46
(1477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
cracklover wrote: In reply to: I have used slings, quickdraws or daisy chains for cleaning. I agree that daisy chais are not necessary for sport climbing, but I do like daisy chains b/c of the adjustability. How do you use them for cleaning? Yes, daisy chains give good adjustability. The issue is when and how is this adjustability appropriate, and how to avoid doing anything that might make a fall of more than an inch or two possible. In reply to: The way I do it, regardless of whether I use slings or daisies, is to WEIGH them once I clip into 2 anchors and before untying my rope... There is no possibility of fall onto the daisy chain or the sling b/c I'm already hanging on it with my full weight before I untie the rope... How is this situation different from the aid climber hanging on his daisy? It's not, assuming you don't ever need to step up to deal with something. Personally, I want an anchor system where if I want to do something as simple as step up to grab my water bottle from a ledge, I don't have to worry that if my foot slips, I could get seriously and debilitating injury, ending my climbing and changing my life. A slightly easier adjustability than a clove hitch isn't worth it. And if you're not talking about belaying off them, but just temporarily hanging from them while you put the rope through the anchors, preparatory to rapping, I think that's fine. I just don't want to haul an extra two otherwise useless pieces of gear around when I'm sport climbing. GO
Got it, we are talking about different things. I'm not talking about using daisies to anchor myself on a multi-pitch climb and belay off of them. I'm just talking about cleaning quickdraws off a single-pitch sport climb. I don't need to ever climb above anchors. I most definitely don't have a water bottle on the ledge that I might want to reach for... I am talking about just hanging off them temporarily to thread the rope though the anchors before rapping.
LOL, and i don't know why I am being such a daisy-chain defender here. I don't even own them. But in the above-mentioned scenario, I know several people who DO use daisies to clean up on a sport route, and I have borrowed them to use when I didn't have slings.
There is only one situation I recall where I thought daisies were more convenient than either slings or quickdraws. It was a climb with a nice ledge from which to clip the anchors. I'm short (5.0) so while I could reach the anchors and clip them from the ledge, they were above my head. So a 2-ft sling attached at waist-level would not reach all the way to anchors, and a 3-ft sling would be too long with a possibility of a fall if I slipped off the ledge while cleaning, and with anchors being too far out of reach if I were to weigh the sling. I could have, of course, used the 2-ft slings, just climb higher on smaller footholds to get within reach of the anchors, and then hang off the slings while cleaning. But on that particular climb I had borrowed daisies, so I was able to stand on the ledge and attach the daisy in such a way that I was still within arms reach while weighing the daisy AND at the same time had my feet comfortable on the ledge.
As far as carrying two extra pieces of useless equipment--we aren't talking about any significant weighr here... I usually have two slings, so daisies are not all that much heavier or harder to carry. I just don't like cleaning with quickdraws if I can avoid that b/c I don't like to be attached so close to the anchors.
|
|
|
|
|
diophantus
Mar 2, 2007, 5:35 PM
Post #33 of 46
(1462 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2006
Posts: 354
|
redpoint73 wrote: diophantus wrote: redpoint73 wrote: Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Email: chrish@bdel.com
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing
In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright
without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor
2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the
slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not
stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and
use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability. The main issue is if you need to step up for any reason and unweight the daisy, and you are not standing on a ledge. You can slip, fall and load the daisy with more than bodyweight. Its usually not necessary to climb above the anchor, But I've had to do it. It happens, and people have died doing it. See my post above: I'm gonna guess that those people weren't using their ropes for part of their rig. But anyway, not telling people how to rig their system, just saying I like my daisy for some situations. You are correct. Its happened in one specific case that I know of, the one at the Red that I already mentioned. Not a case where a daisy chain was used (it was a quickdraw), but I gave it as an example of a case where falling on static material can happen when you clean the anchor and don't "expect" it. I threw this point out b/c some people on this thread seem to have the notion that its impossible to fall and subject the anchor to more than bodyweight load when you are cleaning a sport anchor. The person in the example must have shortcutted something. Either he was threading the rope w/o first clipping the rope to his harness at all, or he clipped it to his gear loop (either by mistake for laziness). Or, he could have been threading the rope for rappel. This is not typical practice for sport climbs at the Red, but possible if he was trying to minimize wear on the chains or some other reason.
I totally agree you can shock the anchor in a static system, and falls can happen. That's why I always get my rope in on the action, it's there might as well use it.
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Mar 2, 2007, 6:32 PM
Post #34 of 46
(1444 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
lena_chita wrote: Got it, we are talking about different things. I'm not talking about using daisies to anchor myself on a multi-pitch climb and belay off of them. I'm just talking about cleaning quickdraws off a single-pitch sport climb... I am talking about just hanging off them temporarily to thread the rope though the anchors before rapping.
Have you read my posts? Thats exactly what happened to the guy that died at the Red, cleaning an anchor on a sport climb. It was a draw and not a daisy, but he did generate enough force to break a draw and deck. And a draws is much stronger then a daisy.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Mar 2, 2007, 7:29 PM
Post #35 of 46
(1419 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
There is a long documentation with films on what is going to happen if you fall on static material. To make it short;
The safest is to use , an 8 mm rope.
|
|
|
|
|
xjlx
Mar 2, 2007, 8:22 PM
Post #36 of 46
(1396 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2005
Posts: 122
|
I am a little confused, most sport draws are maybe a foot long at most, maybe. How in the hell can you fall in a way to generate sufficient forces to break a draw. Also I think these daisy threads get a bit confusing when there is debate about the top of sport climbs mixed with belay stations on multipitch climbs, I understand the belay station scenario (as much as I can without ever doing a multipitch) but outside of a few occasions where for some reason when weighting the daisy and unweighting it when getting your anchor draws off the anchor bolts, I don't see how you can fall more than maybe a few inches at most. If there is any reason to go up above the bolts for any reason .. why not do that while still attached to the rope through your anchor draws ?
|
|
|
|
|
ja1484
Mar 2, 2007, 9:42 PM
Post #37 of 46
(1374 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 1935
|
I am continually confused by the concept of an "anchor backup". The lead rope was good enough the whole time you were leading the pitch with potential for leader falls, but it's not good enough for the anchor, where you will take at most a miniscule factor fall caught from an anchor above your head?
What. The. Hell.
Just clove in, 8 in, and belay your second already. You're clogging up the line.
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Mar 3, 2007, 12:41 AM
Post #38 of 46
(1349 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Good call JA, I believe the official terminology to elaborate further on your post is "SHUT THE F* UP AND CLIMB YOUR 60 METERS".
Which is an adjunt to "GET OUTTA THE WAY WILL YA".
Regards
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Mar 3, 2007, 1:19 AM
Post #39 of 46
(1340 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
jammer wrote: Good reason to have a personal anchor system instead. There are less loops to adjust by, but they are solid.
FYI....the Personal anchor system or PAS is more dangerous than a NYLON daisy. Particularly when any kind of impact force is applied.
Also everyone here should realise the danger's of spectra. You should not be buying spectra daisy's for aid climbing. Buy the nylon ones. Spectra cannot handle any kind of static fall...it will FAIL COMPLETELY!!! The same kind of fall onto nylon is not advised and can case problems as well, but the nylon doesn't fail completely.
I just had some extensive discussion's with a rescue instructor/rigger friend. They've been doing test's on all of this stuff(so have several other people/groups).
They are trying to get some of the climbing companies to step up and take certain items off the market.
The rope is always your best bet...it's wicked strong.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
ja1484
Mar 3, 2007, 4:27 AM
Post #40 of 46
(1320 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 1935
|
jammer wrote: The rope is always your best bet...it's wicked strong. josh
Wicked strong yes, but more importantly, it's the piece of gear in your system designed entirely around stopping falls and keeping you attached to the protection system. Use it for what it's for people. Daisies are fine for aiding, but you really don't need them in any other kind of climbing, period.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Mar 3, 2007, 4:31 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
kevinwaldock
Mar 3, 2007, 3:45 PM
Post #41 of 46
(1302 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 98
|
yes PTPP did break his leg on a dasy fall 2-3 years ago. it was spectra i think. The prob i have with spectra is that it's way thinner then nylon meaning it takes wear and tear much less in my opinion. sure it's a bit stronger, weighs less etc but most accidents from dasiyies breaking seem to always be spectra. coincident? in my opinion no. before i was given a dasiy i used to tie a huge runner then tie eights on a bight down it like a dasiy. my two cents.
(This post was edited by kevinwaldock on Mar 3, 2007, 3:57 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Mar 3, 2007, 4:30 PM
Post #42 of 46
(1297 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
kevinwaldock wrote: yes PTPP did break his leg on a dasy fall 2-3 years ago. it was spectra i think. The prob i have with spectra is that it's way thinner then nylon meaning it takes wear and tear much less in my opinion. sure it's a bit stronger, weighs less etc but most accidents from dasiyies breaking seem to always be spectra. coincident? in my opinion no. before i was given a dasiy i used to tie a huge runner then tie eights on a bight down it like a dasiy. my two cents.
PTPP broke his leg when a Metolious adjustable daisy broke(they are made from nylon). He took a daisy fall without the rope being clipped in. I have another buddy who broke a yates ADJ as well.
Spectra is stronger, however that only counts in pure static load situations.
The "thickness" of the spectra has less to due with the failure of spectra in these situations then the lower melting point AND the ZERO stretch of spectra.
In daisy fall tests a spectra daisy of the same length and construction as a nylon one failed completely everytime. The Nylon super tape daisy's had all or most of the individual pockets blow out, however the primary bartack holds.
Now I wouldn't bet the farm on it....a daisy should still be used as a tether only with the rope being your primary tie in. BUT!! Nylon daisy's(especially supertape) add a bit more safety to the system.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Mar 3, 2007, 5:24 PM
Post #43 of 46
(1291 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
reno wrote: lena_chita wrote: I'm a bit confused: WHY is it O.K. for an aid climber to hang on the daisy chain without being particularly worried about it's failure, but not for the sport climber to do the same while cleaning the anchor? When the sport climber does it, he/she usually unties, threads through the links of the anchor, and reties. Thus, for a time, the climber is not connected to the rope. Not the case for an aid climber.
I almost never untie to thread the lower off anchor on a sport route like this. The only time I would do it is if I were rapping or a bight of rope won't fit through the lower off point. Otherwise I am always tied into the rope.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Mar 3, 2007, 5:32 PM
Post #44 of 46
(1288 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
I've used daisies for neigh on 20 years for a variety of purposes, from aid to jugging to bivi ledge assortment racks to convenience tie-in's for sport and trad.
In recent years I've pretty much stopped using them for anything but aid and there I much prefer Yates adjustable to traditional loop daisies.
For free climbing I stopped using them because they get in the goddamned way when I'm not using them. You either loop the thing around your waist and suffer the cluster fuck of all those little loops interfering with your harness loops, or you double it up and let it dangle down. Invariably those loobs catch on the buckle of my fat-man adjustable leg loops when high stepping, so often that I got in the habit of swinging the little daisy fucker out of the way before making a move. How stupid is that, adjusting your climbing style in a negative fashion to make up for a superflous piece of gear?
For sport a couple of draws usually do the trick, maybe a girthed over the shoulder sling to the harness, like last weekend.
For multipitch trad I will almost always girth a over the shoulder.
For big wall or wallish-FA attempts with lots of rappelling and jugging thrown in the utility of adjustables RULES.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
bbirtle
Mar 3, 2007, 6:25 PM
Post #45 of 46
(1279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 28, 2007
Posts: 102
|
Whoa boy will be linking this thread to a few friends that use daisy chains for anchor tie ins. 
If the primary issue is the fact the "attachment mechinism" is static (non dynamic) wouldn't the same argument hold for using a girth-hitched sling with locking biner on the end as an attachment?
Most of the time you can remain connected by the rope when cleaning a sport climb (and in other cases a clove hitch around two biners is the best way ) but there are some cases where you cannot use the rope e.g. when threading a rappel. What is the recommended tie-in for this case?
(This post was edited by bbirtle on Mar 3, 2007, 6:26 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Mar 4, 2007, 3:26 PM
Post #46 of 46
(1255 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
dingus wrote: For free climbing I stopped using them because they get in the goddamned way when I'm not using them. You either loop the thing around your waist and suffer the cluster fuck of all those little loops interfering with your harness loops, or you double it up and let it dangle down.
I tried the "around the waist" sset up, and didn't like it. Currently, I use an "Over the shoulder" set up for my daisy, where I sling it over one shoulder and under the opposite arm, then clip it to itself. Unclip the daisy biner, let it fall, and presto, it's hanging directly under you. Grab, anchor, and you're done. (FYI, I use the daisy as a back up to the rope nearly 100% of the time.)
Now, I'll admit that I've not the upper body .... uh, bulk... that some of our more burly men do. Oh, hell, let's just call a spade a spade: I'm thinner than an anorexic broomstick. But I am a tall drink of water, with a long torso, and the 140 cm nylon daisy from BD is plenty long enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
