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euroford
Sep 19, 2002, 5:48 PM
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Seams as though i've read allot of speculation about what type of bolt hold best in what type of rock.
I work as a consultant for the architectural facade industry, though i'm new to climbing i thought i could share a bit of info.
most of the bolts used on routes are NOT made to be installed in anything except concrete. not that they won't work fine in stone, its just that this is an undocumented and unsuported use of the hardware.
becouse of that, i won't speculate about sheer or pullout values of particular bolts in particular type of stone.
but that would all be book sense anyways, and i've learned over my years that horse sense is worth a million bucks more than books sense. the best way to get some real horse sense on these applications?
TEST THE DAMN BOLTS!
the attached picture is of a Comten model FGC2000 pullout bolt tester. these are used for testing bolts, acnchors ect. for pullout strength. you thread a nut on the end of the bolt, place the tester over this nut and crank the handles until the guage reads the desired strength. the tester is then left in place for 30seconds. if the guage drops you know the bolt has yeilded and pulled beyong capacity.
IMO: these things should be in WIDESPREAD use amongst the climbing community.
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texasclimber
Sep 19, 2002, 5:58 PM
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WEll, that would be a cool thing to have but I bet if I did buy one of those bolt tester thingies and tried to pull out bolts at my local crag to see how safe they were, people would kill me. "They are fine!" "who the hell are you to do this?!"
I'm sure that would be the reactiosn I'd get. Also, that looks like a pain to bring with you to a climb! BTW, how much WOULD that thing cost?
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paulc
Sep 19, 2002, 5:58 PM
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While I will not argue about the percentages of hardware store bolts vs climbing specific bolts, I will say that I don't know of anyone who uses standard concrete bolts for routes. I would think that they would be tarred and feathered around here. Really if you are going to FA a route, you need to do it right. Good bolts, clean, rap stations if needed, gear used where available. A route is something that should be done right, including the use of climbing spec'ed hardware.
Besides for which pullout strength is not as critical for the typical climbing bolt, you would be worried about shear strength (excepting roof and highly overhund placements, which would be subject to much more pullout loading). So your bolt tester doesn't really check the bolt in a way that that bolt is likely to be loaded for climbing.
In addition the rock is most likely your point of failure on a well placed bolt. Hard to test that on a machine as that will depend on exactly where you locate the bolt on the wall.
Just points to ponder.
Paul
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euroford
Sep 19, 2002, 6:06 PM
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climbing spec bolts???
in my reading it doesn't seam there is such a thing. and why would there be? construction is 100 TIMES more regulated than climbing would ever be. an engineer put his profesional liability on the line when he specs a bolt and millions of bucks are at stake.
true, this would only test for pullout.
want me to go on a tangent about shear strength???? i wouldn't worry about it, if you are useing quality engineered construction fasteners the shear strength far exceeds the strength of the best carabiners. its much less material dependent.
unless you are falling STRAIGHT down i would certainly worry allot about pullout.
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cloudbreak
Sep 19, 2002, 6:09 PM
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Euro, you have a lot of time on your hands ....don't you?
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rockprodigy
Sep 19, 2002, 6:21 PM
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Euro, Thanks for the info. Although these guys don't appreciate your generosity in sharing this information, I do. I have always wondered about the effectiveness of concrete anchors in rock. You are absolutely right, all bolts are designed for concrete...then borowed by the climbing world. How much does a tester cost? I bet if you did some testing yourself in different types of rock you could get an article published in a climbing mag. My guess is bolts in sandstone...like we have all over this country...pullout at well below their rated strengths. It would be interesting to know....
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jhundrup
Sep 19, 2002, 6:22 PM
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texasclimber - I don't think that he was suggesting to test every bolt at the crag, rather get specs on different bolts in different kinds of rock which could be done as test. The specs that come with anchors are for concrete pullout depending on the makeup of the concrete.
paulc - Nothing was said about bolts from a hardware store, however most of the bolts used for climbing can be found at any industrial supply store. Red Heads and Rawl anchors and all the other ones used from climbing are designed for concrete use, they aren't specifically for rock.
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krustyklimber
Sep 19, 2002, 6:22 PM
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The Rawl and Fixe bolts we use in climbing ARE NOT your garden variety carbon steel concrete wedge anchors.
They are in fact stainless steel and manufactured especialy for climbing, the 5piece Rawls have a very high sheer and pullout strength... much higher than any human being can make or take!!!
Stick to bolting flower boxes and signs to buildings, and leave crag developing and climbing safety to those who know it!!!
Your fears are unfounded, and it was unnecessary to put a seed of fear in climbers who have trust issues with sport climbing... The companies who sell this stuff have those testers you speak of, and the liabilty of their company is on the line... You think they don't have company laywers too?
You have done us no service here! Your accusation that these companies are selling , and we route pioneers are installing, less than safe equipment borders on slanderous!!! I am offended!!! And you are NOT invited to my crag...
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-09-19 11:32 ]
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billcoe_
Sep 19, 2002, 6:28 PM
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Euro: your point the other day that you area a Architectural consultant and that Hilti is better than Rawl rings false.
Part of your last post makes up for that. All of the major brands of construction fasteners need ICBO approvals. It is extensive and stringant.
Now: that being said, Rawl wedge anchors are high quality. They have all the approvals and test very high for shear and tensile. Feel free to show us the shear and tensile comparisons if you feel you are correct, between Hilti and Rawl.
BTW: you might not have gotten this at your college, but seam, for the way you use it, is actually spelled SEEM. "Seam" is the work for a thin crack and would be used in another application.
Bill
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texasclimber
Sep 19, 2002, 6:33 PM
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I obviously was not saying that one would pull out every bolt at the crag...but how else would you test bolts in that particular rock? I guess you could bolt somewhere random off route and then test it there, but who the hell would do that when bolts are already on routes all over the crag?! It is nice that you showed us that tester...thank you. I'm sure the bolts are fine and getting better all the time. If you think it is dangerous....well, don't climb OR take a freakin risk! That is why it is called ROCK CLIMBING not ballet!
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rockprodigy
Sep 19, 2002, 6:33 PM
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Jeff, I think you're being a little reactionary. There's nothing wrong with suggesting that we test bolts. I'm sure bolts placed in granite are pretty bomber, but there's a lot of rock out there that isn't, and it would be a good idea for people to find out what they can hold. Have you ever pulled a bolt out with your fingers? I have...and sometimes I worry about all the "airmchair engineers" out there establishing routes that know nothing more about mechanics than what they learned in their high school physics class. You might know what you're doing, in fact I'm sure you are quite competent, but are you sure that every routesetter in the wolrd knows what they are doing?
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jhundrup
Sep 19, 2002, 6:34 PM
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krustyklimber....I am amazed at your response. First off the rawl bolts you use at the crag are not designed for climbing. Check out www.powers.com to get the selection and spec guide on rawl anchors.
I am also amazed that you would slam someone for providing information and espressing their oppinion as you so often do. I don't think this person was suggesting not climbing or trying to scare anyone, just stating that we should test anchors to come up with our own tables of best type of anchor in each type of rock.
Lastly, I didn't know that you owned a crag? Let me know where that is at. Still looking forward to climbing with you in October.
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billcoe_
Sep 19, 2002, 6:36 PM
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Euro:
1 more thing:
I saw you are new to climbing. As a measure of reassurance, various people have done lots and lots of real world pull out tests in stone over the years.
Ed Leeper in particular comes to mind, he use to haul testing equipment just about everywhere. He tested just about all of the bolts and pitons made in the 70's in different rock and various scenarios. He was but one of many who have done this and published the results. Leeper used to publish in the old Summits if you want to research it at the libray, have at it. His stuff was made to a very high standard and his leeper pitons are the best IMO. (He recalled his 1/4 bolt hangers though FYI)
Hilti doesn't post their specs on their site which I find very unusual, but perhaps I missed it.
http://www.hilti.com/holcom/modules/prcat/prca_navigation.jsp?OID=-10329
Rawl (Powers) gives it all to us: what size drill bit (critical, how much torque, etc etc and of course tensile and shear strength in various proofs (strength) concrete. It matters, and they publish it in black and white even though you will not ever"use Rawl on my job site".
http://www.powers.com/58-62.pdf
The Rawl/Powers stainless wedge anchor like I use tests to over 3500 in low proof concrete and over 5000 in high proof. http://www.powers.com/58-62.pdf
I think the independant tests from years ago had @ 4000 lbs in rock for carbon wedge anchors, but thats my poor memory. It wasn't too far removed from the concrete specs. Tensile strength is even higher, (5000-6000 lbs) so stick it straight up into that roof for an increased strength.
If you check the strength of your rope (when brand new) for comparison. http://www.bealropes.com/english.dir/standards.html#performance
then aren't these Rawl specs higher than your (brand new) rope will take, so your crack about Rawls the other day was in fact incorrect, unsubstantiated, not researched and uncalled for......evidently you prefer to use Hiltis whom are very good I'm sure, and undoubtedly as strong as Rawls, but you post no facts, just your opinion. I feel (my opinion) if you want to show up here claiming special knowlede and skill, then back it us and post facts, not your obviously wrong opinion. I can get a wrong opinion from lots of people.
Now, did you really allude to and mean to say people were actually paying you money do do this architectural review job? I understand rrradam getting money for it as he is well researched, thoughtful and intellegent but.....well hey there you have it. Come back when or if you ever get any facts.
If you want to find some real good info, re-read the rrradam bolt thread. I saw you posted to it but must not have read it, so I do not need to link it for you. Ahhh here ya go anyway: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=15980&forum=40&start=30
I'd love to see some real world tests of current ancors in various rock, have at it and give us some real facts for a change.
Bill
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-19 12:52 ]
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jhundrup
Sep 19, 2002, 6:43 PM
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I think that euroford's first statement should be reread by everyone. He says "Seams as though i've read allot of speculation about what type of bolt hold best in what type of rock."
I don't think that he is suggesting fear or danger or any of the stuff he is being accused of, simply clearing up speculation and I would love to see a chart of pull out specs and test in different rock with different types of anchors. If I knew that a certain type of rawl worked better at my crag than say a red head, then I would by all means want to use that.
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rrrADAM
Sep 19, 2002, 6:55 PM
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Jeff... These two sentences are in direct contrast of one another:
Quote:
"They are in fact stainless steel and manufactured especialy for climbing..."
-and-
"...leave crag developing and climbing safety to those who know it!!!"
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murf
Sep 19, 2002, 8:00 PM
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50% correct Adam, while Rawl's aren't specifically made for rockclimbing, Fixe are.
Murf
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roughster
Sep 19, 2002, 8:01 PM
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http://www.fixeusa.com/index.html
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krustyklimber
Sep 19, 2002, 8:02 PM
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Well I must have misconstrued his poor spelling and poor gramar to be an attack on route pioneers.
And I am one. I don't feel I need to test things that have been well tested by the manufacterer, do we put cars through impact test just so we know that NHTSA is doing it right? No, and I am not about to go second guessing companies like Fixe and Petzl
We already have the UIAA and CEN to do these jobs for us, and it has been!
The Fixe catalog I have lists five types of "climbing spec" bolts and uses that exact language. Petzl shows strengths of it's bolts and glue-ins against both pullout and shear.
I am sorry if it seemed as if I was flaming too hard, I just don't like anal college gumbies with little experience telling me I am doing a crappy job at something I have researched very deeply, and have done with the best of intentions for the good of the climbing community. Do you think most route pioneers aren't doing the best job they can?
It seems too that this euroford guy has put his foot in his mouth over bolts before:
billcoe wrote:
Euro: your point the other day that you area a Architectural consultant and that Hilti is better than Rawl rings false.
So I am not the only one who thinks this guy is full of it.
And jhundrup,
No I do not own the crag, but I am the only one who has climbed on it and one of only two people who knows how to get to it!
I am sorry too if I have place too much emphasis on it being mine, it indeed belongs to all of us who are residents of this state. It lies on the same piece of land the DNR recently turn over to our state and it is under the management of the Wallace Falls State Park Rangers, the crags are inside of the Rieter Pit ORV Area.
They are visible from the highway and are open to anyone who desires to walk three hours to get to them, providing you can find your way through a maze of ORV trails and then follow my ribbons through thick hemlock forest with no trail.
Jeff
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wlderdude
Sep 19, 2002, 8:33 PM
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Hey, I would sure love to see that thing testing bolts anywhere that I climb. Maybe people who only climb granite don't care, but dessert sandstone, limestone and other less secure rocks shure leave me wondering sometimes. I would hate to have them pull out on me or have the rock break that holds them in.
I have had to replace bolts that hold down trash compactors that garbage trucks ripped up. I takes the cement up with the bolt most of the time.
That thing would test the strength of the rock, too, right?
I wish all the bolts in the world were stainless, but I see quite a few that obviously are not. I don't know what exactly that means (not "climbing grade?"), I still think they are stronger than nuts, but I will let you all get back to venting your steam.
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roughster
Sep 19, 2002, 8:50 PM
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Climbing Grade really means Grade 5 steel. This means it is strong enough to support humans in a situation where a fall would means big trouble: Airlifts, Platforms, Jungle Gyms, etc...
Look for 3 hash marks in a traingular pattern on the Hex Head that point to the center. That is Grade 5 marks.
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euroford
Sep 20, 2002, 12:45 AM
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jeez sorry...
rawl doesn't necissarily have a bad reputation in my industry, it just happens that hilti has REALLY GREAT reputation. if you ever have a chance to deal with any of there people you will find them to be incredably helpfull and flexable. they also make a fantastic product at a great price.
sorry i heart your feelings for not praising the hilti bolt
you guys need to get real, this is the first time in my LIFE i have ever gotten so ripped up and down for trying to add something.
basicly killed my enthusiasm for what i thought would be a topic i could lend some real world profesional knowedge to.
i was actully thinking about grabbing some fasteners and doing some testing, but if this is how the climbing community feels about people who are intrested in helping out than i don't think i'll bother.
and why is it that whenever somebody disagree's with you on this BBS you get a sly comment about spelling and grammer? this isn't exacly a formal setting, and this isn't exacly microsoft word.
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jbone
Sep 20, 2002, 12:56 AM
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Hey If I don't test my bolts then maybe someday my routes will become Legendary for the feats of bravery that it took to climb them.
That's worth the Risk if you ask me..
What about Glue'in's? Weather? Usage?
Homestead is Bomber!!
JBone
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rrrADAM
Sep 20, 2002, 1:00 AM
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Don't sweat it 'euro'... My spelling and grammer is among the worst on the site.
Just shake it off brutha.
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mitchal
Sep 20, 2002, 1:50 AM
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Thanks for the info.I'm sure you are trying to help. Some of us here can be a little sensitive,ME for one.Do not let anyone giving you a hard time stop your efforts.If that were the case,we'd still not be flying.
Keep on testing and researching.
Climb Happy
Mitch
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jds100
Sep 20, 2002, 2:15 AM
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Euro, one thing you might keep in mind, inasmuch as you are new to the sport and probably new to these forums, is that ideas that are seemingly new to you are very unlikely to be new to the climbing community. In general, the discussion of bolts used for climbing has been going on for decades, and there have been engineers and architects invloved in these discussions and in climbing for a long time.
Your intentions are good, but you might want to consider posing your "original thoughts" and contributions in the form of a question next time, to see if perhaps the topic has been thoroughly discussed already. You might even ask for references, so you can do some further research yourself.
The most valuable thing people new to climbing can bring to the table is their enthusiasm; don't lose that. The second most valuable thing they can bring is the ability to listen quietly to the incredible amount and variety of experience and knowledge that preceded them into climbing.
I don't mean this disrespectfully. It's just very common for people to want to make a contribution -something new- to this exciting community that is new to them, whether it's in the form of an opinion or some expertise. This excitement is better channeled into doing more reading and learing, and, of course, climbing. Time and experience lend genuine weight to opinions and are more likely to foster genuinely new ideas.
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