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treddy


Mar 6, 2007, 9:41 AM
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Belaying two seconds on double ropes?
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I'm heading out on a trip where I will probably be doing some climbing as a party of three. I've done this before using my reverso to bring up two seconds at once, drastically cutting down the time required to do a route. On this trip, however, I have a brand spanking new pair of double ropes I plan to start using, and was wondering: is it safe to simultaneously belay two seconds on double ropes (i.e. one on each strand)?

Thanks,
Tim


coastal_climber


Mar 6, 2007, 10:00 AM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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You would probably be ok. They would be top roping, so you aren't going to be putting a lot of force on the ropes, although they aren't supposed to be used individually. I personally wouldn't want too, but its your call.

>Cam


reno


Mar 6, 2007, 10:00 AM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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Yes, but rope management is crucial to avoid the dreaded Fuster Cluck.


Partner j_ung


Mar 6, 2007, 10:16 AM
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Re: [reno] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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It's done all the time.


redpoint73


Mar 6, 2007, 10:29 AM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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You should be fine if the diameter is within the specified range of the Reverso (8-11mm), and I think that all doubles (not twins) on the market are larger then 8mm.

I do see the concern with newer ropes, though. Some coatings on new ropes (like Beal) are very slippery until they wear a bit.


jumpingrock


Mar 6, 2007, 2:35 PM
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Re: [redpoint73] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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buy an atc guide. You'll never look at your reverso again.


Partner devkrev


Mar 6, 2007, 2:40 PM
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Re: [jumpingrock] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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jumpingrock wrote:
buy an atc guide. You'll never look at your reverso again.

Because that's totally the OP's question.


I would be comfortable doing what you said, as long as there isn't too many sharp edges lurking around.

Its definitely nerve-racking for the second though. Our at least it was for me, maybe I am just a sissy who doesn't know what he is talking about though.

dev


theirishman


Mar 6, 2007, 2:45 PM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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i do it all the time and it works perfectly (PS reverso i feel is better because if you are at a bolted anchor with a ATC guide you cant just put both draws through it top part like you can a reverso)


verticon


Mar 6, 2007, 3:00 PM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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I use to climb as a party of three with Beal Cobra double ropes but I didn't like how the Reverso works on smaller diameters, so I bought a Reversino. Although it is advised for ropes thinner than 8 mm (I guess) it works perfectly on the Cobras and yes, I belay both seconds at a time


(This post was edited by verticon on Mar 6, 2007, 3:02 PM)


dvd


Mar 6, 2007, 3:22 PM
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Re: [coastal_climber] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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its great for ice, makes cold belays that much shorter


rockguide


Mar 9, 2007, 10:31 PM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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treddy wrote:
I'm heading out on a trip where I will probably be doing some climbing as a party of three. I've done this before using my reverso to bring up two seconds at once, drastically cutting down the time required to do a route. On this trip, however, I have a brand spanking new pair of double ropes I plan to start using, and was wondering: is it safe to simultaneously belay two seconds on double ropes (i.e. one on each strand)?

Thanks,
Tim

It depends.

For a straight up route that has no sharp edges and low chance of rockfall, yes.

If one pitch wanders and you are planning on clipping separately, then consider - are you exposing one second to an unforgiving swinging fall? Best to go with two single ropes and belay one at a time (with the middle back clipping the second rope.

If there are sharp edges and traverses (I am from the Canadian Rockies, BTW) then 9mm too thin to handle the abrasion of a second fall. Belaying two people at once on major traverses has problems as well if one person falls and knocks the other off.

If there is likely rock fall (again ... look where I am from) then 9mm is too thin.

When I bring up two seconds, I often do it on 2x10mm or 10.5mm ropes. I lead on one while clipping the second one to important directionals and belaying one at a time. Burly? Heck yeah. I take care of my seconds. Powered by dark beer.

I then have the option on leading on a single rope with the other rope between #2 and #3 if the individual pitch warrants it.

Granite slabs and straight up routes? I would go light. If only my life was so easy. Sigh.

I don't think any of the rope manufacturers advocate belaying a second on a single half rope or twin. Their scientists may be smarter than me, so I go with their specs.


(This post was edited by rockguide on Mar 10, 2007, 7:29 AM)


builttospill


Mar 9, 2007, 10:34 PM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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I do it fairly often. It's safe. If you like the reverso but your ropes are too small.....try the reversino. It's designed for smaller ropes.


marde


Mar 11, 2007, 2:19 PM
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Re: [rockguide] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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rockguide wrote:
I don't think any of the rope manufacturers advocate belaying a second on a single half rope or twin. Their scientists may be smarter than me, so I go with their specs.

Mammut does.


rockguide


Mar 11, 2007, 5:23 PM
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Re: [marde] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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marde wrote:
rockguide wrote:
I don't think any of the rope manufacturers advocate belaying a second on a single half rope or twin. Their scientists may be smarter than me, so I go with their specs.

Mammut does.

I am surprised - I know most companies say using one half rope is OK on glacier travel - just not on technical rock.

Nice to know the times I applied the technique I may not have been outside manufacturer spec. I still very rarely do it, especially in the range where I climb.

Please post a link to where you saw this - I would like to see it.


pro_alien


Mar 12, 2007, 12:00 AM
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Re: [rockguide] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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http://www.mammut.ch/...ilfibel_E_050722.pdf

Mammut wrote:
Half ropes, with regard to strength and
weight, lie between single and twin ropes.
They only offer standard safety when they are
used as a pair. But here you have the choice
between twin rope technique, where both
ropes run parallel through the protection and
half rope technique, where the «left» and
«right» ropes runs separately through different
protection points.
This technique allows
friction to be reduced in the case where protection
points are widely spread and reduces
impact force. This is of benefit when climbing
traditionally protected routes. A belay method
which enables the independent control of
each rope must be used. Half ropes are tested
singly with a 55 kg mass and must withstand
five standard falls. They come in diameters
from 8 to 9 mm and weigh 41 to 55 grams per
meter. In single strand form they are suitable
to belay two seconds.

(emphasis added by me)

Assuming reasonably competent belaying, the seconds should not experience any serious falls, so one strand is good enough.


rockguide


Mar 12, 2007, 6:09 AM
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Re: [pro_alien] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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pro_alien wrote:
http://www.mammut.ch/...ilfibel_E_050722.pdf

Mammut wrote:
Half ropes, with regard to strength and
weight, lie between single and twin ropes.
They only offer standard safety when they are
used as a pair. But here you have the choice
between twin rope technique, where both
ropes run parallel through the protection and
half rope technique, where the «left» and
«right» ropes runs separately through different
protection points.
This technique allows
friction to be reduced in the case where protection
points are widely spread and reduces
impact force. This is of benefit when climbing
traditionally protected routes. A belay method
which enables the independent control of
each rope must be used. Half ropes are tested
singly with a 55 kg mass and must withstand
five standard falls. They come in diameters
from 8 to 9 mm and weigh 41 to 55 grams per
meter. In single strand form they are suitable
to belay two seconds.

(emphasis added by me)

Assuming reasonably competent belaying, the seconds should not experience any serious falls, so one strand is good enough.

Thanks - good to see.


jumpingrock


Mar 12, 2007, 12:26 PM
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Re: [rockguide] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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Truth is, most of the time when you fall on doubles, you only fall on one rope anyway (unless you are doing twin technique). If the rope is strong enough to hold your lead fall, it'll definitely be strong enough to hold a second toprope fall.

Additionally, and I might be completely off base here, how much of a difference does the 2mm really make if a large piece of limestone falls on the rope? If a rock falls on the rope and severes it enough to snap a 8.6mm double but doesn't severe it enough to snap a 10.2/5. How much strength is actually left in the rope at that point?

Now that said, I understand where you are coming from and many people who climb yam in a party of three climb with two single ropes rather than doubles. I guess I'm just not convinced how much of a difference that actually makes.


scrapedape


Mar 12, 2007, 6:37 PM
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Re: [jumpingrock] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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jumpingrock wrote:
Additionally, and I might be completely off base here, how much of a difference does the 2mm really make if a large piece of limestone falls on the rope? If a rock falls on the rope and severes it enough to snap a 8.6mm double but doesn't severe it enough to snap a 10.2/5. How much strength is actually left in the rope at that point?
There is about 50% more material in a 10.5 mm rope than in an 8.6 mm.
I often climb (both leading and following) in a party of 3 with one follower on each of two half ropes.
I have also declined to follow a pitch when my safety would have relied on a single half rope, and that rope was at risk of sliding across a sharp edge.
I guess, as always, it depends.


jumpingrock


Mar 13, 2007, 8:44 AM
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Re: [scrapedape] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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I guess that makes sense. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.


norclimb


Mar 27, 2007, 4:47 AM
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Re: [jumpingrock] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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Without knowing what kind of climbing you'll get into it's not that easy to give you a 100% definitive answer.

Usually I would have no second thoughts about having two people following me on double ropes. I’ve done it several times and with a Reverso/reversino it’s the easiest and safe enough. Double ropes are in fact designed to tackle leader falls on just one rope so that should not be a problem. What I would consider though is having some good routines if the climbing involves traversing. Make sure that the two persons following you are not climbing simultaneously. What I mean is that they’re not climbing beside each other – you would want some meters between them. Another thing (may sound simple and you’ve probably thought about it) that I’m very conscious about is that person A that goes first actually clips person B’s rope in at every point. This so that person B doesn’t have to cope with a giant pendulum should he fall. Person B then has to clean the route.

Final point: Of course you’ll check how the reverso copes with your kind of rope as soon as possible.

Have a nice trip!


chh


Mar 27, 2007, 5:51 AM
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Re: [theirishman] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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theirishman wrote:
i do it all the time and it works perfectly (PS reverso i feel is better because if you are at a bolted anchor with a ATC guide you cant just put both draws through it top part like you can a reverso)

Actually, the ATC guide will accept 2 biners, but not all biners. I know for sure that 2 of my superflys or nanos go in that hole quite easily. Some other newer, smaller biners would probably work as well. Now my older ovals? Forget about it. I do wish that hole was a hair larger though.

And I would feel totally comfortable following on a double rope so long as the pitch didn't have any really sharp edges


stymingersfink


Mar 28, 2007, 5:06 PM
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Re: [chh] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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chh wrote:
theirishman wrote:
i do it all the time and it works perfectly (PS reverso i feel is better because if you are at a bolted anchor with a ATC guide you cant just put both draws through it top part like you can a reverso)

Actually, the ATC guide will accept 2 biners, but not all biners. I know for sure that 2 of my superflys or nanos go in that hole quite easily. Some other newer, smaller biners would probably work as well. Now my older ovals? Forget about it. I do wish that hole was a hair larger though.

And I would feel totally comfortable following on a double rope so long as the pitch didn't have any really sharp edges
Course, the clip-in will accept any locker, even the tiwstlocks will fit through there.

Ice climbing my partner usually comes up on a single strand. Climbing in a party of 3 one would need to be conscious of how far a person might fall with rope stretch, but with ice two seconds typically will climb next to each other to prevent being in the impact zone. If the route is too narrow to accomodate such, they will take turns with a safe seperation distance between them.


catbird_seat


Mar 31, 2007, 9:30 PM
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Re: [treddy] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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treddy wrote:
I'm heading out on a trip where I will probably be doing some climbing as a party of three. I've done this before using my reverso to bring up two seconds at once, drastically cutting down the time required to do a route. On this trip, however, I have a brand spanking new pair of double ropes I plan to start using, and was wondering: is it safe to simultaneously belay two seconds on double ropes (i.e. one on each strand)?

Thanks,
Tim
Just adding to many of the good thoughts already voiced: Don't try bringing up two seconds on single strands if you are using TWINS. They are not rated for this. Also, if the particular pitch is especially difficult for your seconds you would be well advised to bring them up one at a time so you can concentrate on coaching and belaying.


reno


Apr 1, 2007, 9:25 AM
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Re: [catbird_seat] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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catbird_seat wrote:
Also, if the particular pitch is especially difficult for your seconds you would be well advised to bring them up one at a time so you can concentrate on coaching and belaying.

Which requires either doubles or a second single rope.

You knew this, of course, but I'm just pointing out the obvious for those who might not.


(This post was edited by reno on Apr 2, 2007, 9:45 AM)


jermeng


Apr 2, 2007, 1:02 AM
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Re: [reno] Belaying two seconds on double ropes? [In reply to]
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Here's another thought. Just be sure that you're comfortable releasing the belay when autoblocking; as this may come into play if there are any overhanging sections that your follower(s) may have trouble with.

I'm also surprised that nobody mentioned the B-52 for this purpose. As it easily facilitates 2 locking caribiners for anchoring and is lighter and less bulky than either the ATC-guide or Reverso. Just my thoughts...

Jeremy


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