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ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce)
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dirtbagger


Mar 10, 2007, 10:54 AM
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ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce)
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Hi there

Was wondering, has anybody ever been using ascenders with "teethed" cams, which happened to strip a rope on a full fall?

The reason I am asking, is I have read heaps about the issue with the teeths ripping the mantel of the rope etc!

BD has or is bringing out the new NForce ascender, which doesn't have any teeth's on the cam! Hence this wouldn't be a problem! But then against that, I have used Petzl ascenders for the last 15 years and never had a rope break or damaged with the use! But then I have never fallen on a ascender either!

Just wondering how common the rope sheath damage is due to teethed cams?

I guess the best against teeths, is that if iced up or dirty ropes are used, it doesn't matter?

cheers

dirtbagger


dcaldous


Mar 10, 2007, 11:52 AM
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Re: [dirtbagger] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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I've snagged the sheath of a rope with a tibloc ascender that wasn't set very well. In general the ascenders don't cause significant sheath damage unless the forces are larger than about 4 kN according to the information Petzl provides.
The N-Force ascenders do have teeth they just aren't as big and as agressive as the Petzl ascenders. They don't need to be as agressive because the pinching force is greater with their four bar linkage.


skinner


Mar 10, 2007, 12:44 PM
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Re: [dirtbagger] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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I've never seen or heard of damage from an ascender that was significant, like a core shot or something. Ascenders tend to gradually cause wear to the mantle as the teeth grab and pull on the fibers. I had a 10mm static that had been jugged on so many times the mantle was fluffed and puffed up so that it looked like a 12mm. I did search the web for a while looking for evidence of an ascender significantly damaging a rope, and found nothing.
I'd be interested in seeing these articles you have read where damage like this occurred.

-Kevin


Davey


Mar 10, 2007, 10:18 PM
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Re: [dirtbagger] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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I was looking on BD's web site and it looked like the Nforce has teath to me. could be wrong but the one on the left in the pic looks like it has small teath on the cam.


dontmaytagme


Mar 10, 2007, 11:03 PM
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no


moof


Mar 11, 2007, 1:36 PM
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Re: [dontmaytagme] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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Looks like nubs to me. Not sure what overly anal distinction between nubs and teeth is, but I wouldn't think less of someone calling them teeth. Much less agressive than the Petzl ones for sure.

Even things like the Gibbs have features on the cam, it's not a smooth surface. Who cares?


Partner oldsalt


Mar 11, 2007, 3:13 PM
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Re: [dcaldous] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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I, too, have damaged a rope sheath with a Ti-bloc. I thought that tips of the teeth had released from the sheath and released my backup.

I continued to use the rope, because the core was intact and it was in the last 10 feet.


linvillelover


Mar 18, 2008, 7:57 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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i hope you tie in with a 10 foot tail.


nunatak


Mar 18, 2008, 9:51 PM
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Re: [dirtbagger] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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dirtbagger wrote:
Hi there

Was wondering, has anybody ever been using ascenders with "teethed" cams, which happened to strip a rope on a full fall?

The reason I am asking, is I have read heaps about the issue with the teeths ripping the mantel of the rope etc!

BD has or is bringing out the new NForce ascender, which doesn't have any teeth's on the cam! Hence this wouldn't be a problem! But then against that, I have used Petzl ascenders for the last 15 years and never had a rope break or damaged with the use! But then I have never fallen on a ascender either!

Just wondering how common the rope sheath damage is due to teethed cams?

I guess the best against teeths, is that if iced up or dirty ropes are used, it doesn't matter?

cheers

dirtbagger



Am I wrong, or are ascenders and such not designed for or rated for full falls. Ascending a rope is working or hanging weight, not full force fall weight. Am I wrong?


majid_sabet


Mar 18, 2008, 10:13 PM
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Re: [nunatak] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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nunatak wrote:
dirtbagger wrote:
Hi there

Was wondering, has anybody ever been using ascenders with "teethed" cams, which happened to strip a rope on a full fall?

The reason I am asking, is I have read heaps about the issue with the teeths ripping the mantel of the rope etc!

BD has or is bringing out the new NForce ascender, which doesn't have any teeth's on the cam! Hence this wouldn't be a problem! But then against that, I have used Petzl ascenders for the last 15 years and never had a rope break or damaged with the use! But then I have never fallen on a ascender either!

Just wondering how common the rope sheath damage is due to teethed cams?

I guess the best against teeths, is that if iced up or dirty ropes are used, it doesn't matter?

cheers

dirtbagger



Am I wrong, or are ascenders and such not designed for or rated for full falls. Ascending a rope is working or hanging weight, not full force fall weight. Am I wrong?

you are correct. They are not designed to take fall.


marde


Mar 19, 2008, 9:12 AM
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Re: [skinner] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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I think the "oh my god the teeth are gonna cut my rope" thing is pretty much a myth.
Otherwise the rock below el cap would be red.
Speaking of damage to the rope:
toproping wears out your rope way faster than jumaring.


tolman_paul


Mar 19, 2008, 10:47 AM
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Re: [marde] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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I'd rather have the teeth fuzz the rope over time, than make negative progress on an icey rope Shocked


dingus


Mar 19, 2008, 11:20 AM
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Re: [tolman_paul] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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I own Pretzels and yellow handled jumars.

If the 'jug must not slip' I want the pretzels.

But if I'm working fixed ropes, going up and down, hauling loads etc? I want the Jumars.

the difference is the teeth - the pretzels are too easy to catch. So using them, for example, as a self-belay device for rapping fixed ropes can be VERY frustrating.

On the other hand, a jumar slipping on an iced rope can be terrifying.

DMT


vashie


Mar 19, 2008, 8:24 PM
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Re: [dirtbagger] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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Well let me step out of the wall gumby closest here for a second. I have taken a "fall" on an ascender. It was my gold Petzl (left). I was cleaning a pitch and my leg went trough the aider and I took a static fall on the sling I was attached to the ascender with. I experienced no rope damage to speak of and the thing held like a champ. as for the "nforce" its not a new design, Kong made an ascender with that design for several years. If I remember correctly they also had glow-in-the-dark handles.


(This post was edited by vashie on Mar 19, 2008, 8:25 PM)


russwalling


Mar 19, 2008, 11:01 PM
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Re: [vashie] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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vashie wrote:
I was cleaning a pitch and my leg went trough the aider and I took a static fall on the sling I was attached to the ascender with. I experienced no rope damage to speak of and the thing held like a champ.

Only to nitpick... not really a static fall... there was rope in the system, dynamic rope, above your ascender. Calling what happened a "fall" brings back all the bad memories of the "daisy death" threads.

As to the OP: A real lead type fall will damage the rope. Normal bull crap that we do ad nauseum will not damage your rope in 97.463% of cases.

Ps: Dirtbagger, you are who I think you are right? Cheers!


moof


Mar 20, 2008, 8:52 AM
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Re: [russwalling] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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Recent data indicates it's more like 97.561%.


Partner oldsalt


Mar 21, 2008, 8:12 AM
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Re: [linvillelover] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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linvillelover wrote:
i hope you tie in with a 10 foot tail.
(regarding the 10' of my rope that was abraided by a Ti-bloc)

I left that end in the bag, basically, then bought a new rope. My old one is now a lovely rug next to my computer desk.

As I typed this, it sounds a little macabre - like saying, "Rover was a great dog. Now he is a rug next to my computer desk."


sizzlechest


Mar 21, 2008, 4:54 PM
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Re: [dingus] ascenders without teeth question (eg BD Nforce) [In reply to]
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mmmmmm, pretzels......


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