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Partner missedyno


Sep 19, 2002, 9:11 PM
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Okay ladies.

this forum is for you, so let's talk about how you'd like it moderated.

It has already been outlined that this forum will be highly moderated; no offensive remarks, spam, etc will be tolerated.

Any other specifics you would like to see?

We invite your thoughts and opinions on what it will take to keep the standards high in here. To discuss in this thread, an outline for this forum. We represent you, so we welcome you to tell us how you'd like to see things done. And to let you know that we'll try our best.

Not looking for a set of rules, or a mission statement per say, but rather the opinions of those we are moderating this forum for.

What will it take to keep this a non-threatening environment?

Are there any "grey areas" you'd like to talk about so we know how to address them in the future?

How's it going so far? (i.e. What we have learned, how can things be done better)

Thanks for the patience!!


~jessica


climberchic


Sep 19, 2002, 11:19 PM
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Wonderfully put, Jessica. Thanks

Here are my thoughts on the isseue and please feel free to tell me what you think...agree or disagree.

Personally, I think that as much as men are welcome to post and read here, their posts need to stay relevant to the topic, not just unoffensive (is that a word?).

This is a woman's forum for women to chat about women's issues. Guys are welcome to read to gain insight into a female climbers perspective and offer advice that pertains to women. We wouldn't go into the aid forum to talk bouldering, so keep that in mind when posting to the women's forum. If it pertains to both sexes, it will be moved to another forum. I have been warned to keep on track with this forum and we don't want to risk losing it.

But I do think we need to define "spam". What are our goals here?

To keep the threads lean so readers can surf through useful information?

What would you climber chick's like to see done with this forum to keep it, as Jessica said, a non-threatening environment for women?

~Erica

[ This Message was edited by: climberchic on 2002-09-19 23:22 ]


climbsomething


Sep 20, 2002, 12:03 AM
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Hmmm....

In the forum descrip (at least, as it was written earlier this afternoon), it just says highly moderated and no spam allowed. Which I see some of us are starting to see as a little vague. Are comments from men that go something like "oh, any time you wanna do an all-girls climb, invite me too!" really offensive spam? Or just flip and nothing more?

Personally, I think they're mostly just trying to be cute. I'm not pissed or threatened, but I do ... do we not get enough of that? Sheesh. Like, yeah... heh. heh. Funny boys. Never heard that one like that before.

So... if you want to keep out the offensive as well as the simply unnecessary, then reword the forum descrip to state exactly that. That not only will offensive content not be tolerated, but neither will off-topic smart-assery. (hehe, maybe I am not quite the one to be rewriting that paragraph but you pickin' up what I'm puttin' down?)

~Hillary


climbsomething


Sep 20, 2002, 1:28 AM
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Eef. I always get all flustered like I don't make the sense I'm meaning too! Let me try again. Maybe I can get to the point better.

The threads have been moderated pretty closely, and anything resembling sexist cracks, even if not with mal intent, have been snipped.

And for this, I say, good.

Because even though the comments don't anger or hurt me (well, haven't thus far... my tolerance is generally high. See my post in the Jokes Too Far thread), they can be a bit of a pain in the arse here, a distraction... minor, but sheesh, if we can eliminate it, I don't think the forum would suffer from any kind of fascist censorship. Just keep things relevant to the ladies! That is what THIS forum is for. Like Erica said, you don't talk about bouldering in the aid forum.

And if you want to be otherwise cute, there are plenty of opportunities (and I know because I take them ) over in Community. *This* is a unique and special place.


Ahh, but here comes the REAL rant...

I no longer consider myself a newbie to this site. I've made some e-friends, and also found people who I *don't* like and am glad don't live or climb near me. Likewise, some people have decided that I am either Wonderfully Kewl, or some dumb little bitch. I have been personally, intentionally hurt and slandered (with some very male motivations, BTW) elsewhere on/around/through the site, and honestly, personally... I want to see this little corner of rc.com be a place that does NOT foster that kind of hostility.

I hope I don't sound like a crybaby. But I want to know there's a place where the women take care of each other and the men aren't pigs. I know I'm not perfect, nor am I a pacifist, but can I ask that we have a little less hurt in day to day life? Maybe care and and consideration *are* contagious!

Sigh...

/End rant

OK. Anyhow. The kinds of topics that have been put here are great. I think people have gotten the idea pretty well already. So let's keep it up!

Men... we don't hate you. But you're on our turf. Let me put it this way:

I am Hillary. I am a (well, nearly) 22 year old woman. I am somebody's daughter, sister, and girlfriend. And before my time is up, I want to be somebody's wife and mother. Before you open your mouths, think, would you feel comfortable if somebody said the same words you intend to to your own daughter, sister, girlfriend... wife, mother? Would they help that special lady in your life with her climbing? Do you think she might appreciate your input? Or could she be annoyed, bothered?

Be chill, be mature... or be gone. Ka-peesh?

...ay Dios mios, I've mini-ranted! Two rants in one post! Wowza!

Oh my goodness, I need to get a glass of water or sumptin'

You've gotten this far... go you!

Hehe, well, I think I've given my opinion!

Love,

~Hillary


nikegirl


Sep 20, 2002, 1:51 AM
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I think that we are on the right track via this idea...so what is spam?
Spam to me, is just that...unnecessary posting of irrelivant babble... wasting of space...I've removed spam...usually the obvious. Here, It is difficult to remove comments, of "unnecessary" demeanor.

Definitly gray.

There is a "control" concern I can see possibly happening.

Femanist observations, or debating...is just that...observation or opinion. Keep it on track. Moderate accordingly.

There is going to be trial and error as we all go along, here.

"Highly offensive remarks will not be tolerated" is a good wording. Most know when they are being just that: offensive

Pm'ing the user, and pretty much shutting it right down, can be a way, as well.

*more later
sweeeeeeeeeepy

~T









climbchick


Sep 20, 2002, 8:14 AM
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I agree that posts directed to both men and women should be moved. But how strict are we going to be about topics? Is this going to be a forum about women's climbing issues only, or women's issues/thoughts/feelings in general? For example, the "What makes you come alive" thread does not seem to address a women's climbing issue, but yet I think it's a great topic and feel no compelling need to move it to Community . . . ?

I agree that useless, outright flames should be deleted. We need to clearly define a flame as something written to offend without contributing any useful content to a thread. I think we need to be careful about not going overboard in an attempt to keep everything nicey-nicey. People have strong opinions on some topics and should be allowed to express disagreement as forcefully as they wish. I for one do not feel the need to be overly coddled and protected and I object to it on some levels because I don't like the idea that I'm not capable of dealing with the reality of other people's opinions and defending myself. I tend to resist any idea that other people need to take responsibility for me and decide what is safe/good/acceptable for me. On the other hand, I certainly don't want people to have the idea that they can come here and troll in the hopes of raising the ire of a dozen indignant women and getting a big juicy flamefest going.

As for silly catcalling etc . . sure, let's delete those posts. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me at all but it does get boring pretty quickly and if we don't discourage it, we're likely to end up having all the threads filled with the same useless clutter.

Well, those are my thoughts and I must say I'm surprised by how difficult I'm finding it to come to a definite conclusion about where the lines should be drawn . . . .


fiend


Sep 20, 2002, 8:50 AM
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To offer a male (well, kind of male, I don't like engines or team sports so sometimes I wonder ) perspective on the whole 'cute male jokes' thing.

They're not directed at me, I'm not a girl, I shouldn't be offended by them... but they still annoy the hell out of me!

I would agree that all non-related male posts be removed from this forum no matter what the intention was. Sometimes us guys may think we're being funny and will try to post something as a way of making up for the fact that we feel left out, but it really does get annoying after the first few jokes, so y'all might as well not set a precident and just delete all 'cutesy joke' posts.


russmanswife


Sep 20, 2002, 9:30 AM
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as far as topics go in this forum i would like it to pretty much cover all women's issues and not just climbing, this is a rockclimbing website so most of the forums pretty much cover that so a forum strictly for women should be pretty open as long as a topic is in good taste and exceptable to everyone i don't see anything wrong with it. as for spamming and inappropriate remarks that may just be something that we keep and eye out for and if someone is offended then pm one of the moderators so that it can be taken care of. there is just going to be a little trial and error for a little bit before everyone knows what is appropriate and what isn't. i think most of the women on this site have pretty tough skin as far as that goes and just need to decide as a group what we want to talk or not talk about in this forum.

bobbi

p.s. hillary good point i think some men forget we aren't just a member of the opposite sex but someone's daughter, mother, etc.


Partner polarwid


Sep 20, 2002, 9:42 AM
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I just would like to point out that when editing or deleting posts, don't look at the profile of the user to find out the gender of the poster. Some of the screen names we have are generic so you may not know the gender of the poster. Obviously you know who some of the guys are, and who some of the girls are, but ignore their gender when reading the posts in this forum. But if you are going to censor this forum, it should be done equally. If a woman gets off topic, or makes a crude remark, or "SPAMS", that remark or post should be "snipped" just as fast as a remark from a man. In other words, look at the remark and not the user, treat all users the same, ignore the gender of the poster.

JUST MY $00.02
P_WIDDY



[ This Message was edited by: polarwid on 2002-09-20 10:47 ]


rocks4jules


Sep 20, 2002, 9:44 AM
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  I have been utterly pleased with the way in which you have handled this and all the efforts put into the forum. There are definitely some issues which must remain for "us" women. We live in a "mans world" and we have to put up with enough as it is without being rideculed for serious subjects/forums which can be helpful and educational to us, as well as the men. I'd like to see topics which pertain to women, such as physical differences, planned trips (for women only), maybe for those parents out there -- fears and tips for children learning to climb, etc. Many males "chew up" these serious forums and they really should be more private. Thanks for your help and all your work.

JULES


climberchic


Sep 20, 2002, 11:32 AM
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Quote:I'm also a journalist and fully understand the implications of Censorship, which is what you're espousing. Hate to tell you, ladies, but it's illegal.

Martha~
Actually it is not illegal here. This is a privately-owned website and censorship is fully acceptable and necessary to follow guidelines in these, again, privately-owned forums.

Quote:Interestingly enough, you are playing Isolationist, which is how the "boys" have been treating us all along. From a distance. Thus, you're playing right into the implied social defamation of character that's been going on for hundreds of years. It's like Switzerland during the War they wanted NOBODY hostile crossing their borders to fight or occupy, so they stood their armed guards at the border and didn't let ANYONE across. And look at Switzerland today pretty, but uninteresting. Home of laundered money and where the Nazis ended up hiding all the assets they confiscated from the Jews. Translation: corruption is imminent within an imposed and Isolationist Majority.

ummm... I thought I might be taking this forum a little too seriously. Martha, this is just a place that women can go to talk about some of our issues without all the extraneous fluff that flies around in the other forums. A place where we can go to discuss our topics in a more secluded area.

Is this a private forum? No, it isn't. And all women aren't on opposite sides of the grotto as I explained to you in my PM. This is a forum for women who want to discuss their views or concerns in a safer setting. If you don't agree with it, boycott it. I think it would be a shame considering your amazing amount of experience and the advice you could offer to new climbers, but if you feel so strongly about it, then we have no choice but to accept the loss. This was started with the good intentions for the women that may have a more timid persona and new female climbers that are intimidated by the male forums flying around every other forum.

Quote:Climbing is not safe. Why should forums be safe? Are you kidding? I don't think women supporting each other in an internet forum has anything to do with the inherent risks of climbing.

Quote:Okay, if you're going to differentiate and isolate, where's the Men's Forum? Where's the Colored Person's Forum? Why don't you fight for that then? Because I am not a person of color, I can't offer too many views on that, so I probably shouldn't be the one to start that forum. Oh, and it is..."person of color" or "person of ethnic descent" now as we are in the 21st Century and not the 60s.



~sigh~

Well, I think there is a lot of good feedback here.

Doug~If you don't mind, I'd like to discuss your comments in more detail in a PM and then we'll post our conclusion? If feel strongly about discussing it here, I'll respect that.

Bobbi and Yvette~ good issue. Personally, I'd like to see this forum discussing all women's issues, even if they are not climbing related. Does anyone object to this?

Mark~I agree. Really no harm done, but it gets predictable and boring after a while.

Keep them coming! The more feedback the better to come up with the fairest guidelines possible.

~Erica

[ This Message was edited by: climberchic on 2002-09-20 11:33 ]


rockwomyn


Sep 20, 2002, 11:47 AM
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well put erica....i'm with you. Only to keep the repetition down.

agree....also on all women's issues, even if unrelated to climbing!!

i'm outta here the gunks are calling my name!!!


likethegoddess


Sep 20, 2002, 1:03 PM
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I want to thank you, climbchick, skibabeage (we'll talk about affirmative action and 12 step groups later ) and polarwind, for your words. I feel a little less in the minority here. I'm all for a forum where chicks can talk to eachother about chick-related things. But when I read words like "non-threatening", I start to wonder. How "safe" are we planning to make it here? I mean some people feel threatened when their deeply held beliefs are challenged. We could make is so safe that anyone saying something we don't agree with can be quickly and easily striken from the record. We can make it so safe that if someone uses words we don't want them to use, we can install software to automatically replace those words with asterisks. While I don't want guys (or anyone else for that matter) coming in to be jerks, there's a difference between being abusive and, say, holding an unpopular opinion or making an inappropriate joke. I don't want to be in a place that's so "safe" that real discussion is impossible.

I have to speak up for the guys here, too. They aren't the only ones who may create trouble in a women's forum. I was in an all women's listserv until it self-destructed recently. And I will tell you that even on a private list with all members verified as female, the flames still flew. So, I'd urge us to be realistic about our own tendencies as well. I want to give credit to the men that come to this forum will be here seeking our insights and offering their ideas. I want to value them as equals, even in the forum geared toward the ladies.

That being said, how do we define "offensive remarks"? When do you brush it off? When do you address the poster directly? On the board or by PM? When do you delete a post for its offensiveness? Or do you? I think an old here http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=15116&forum=36 gauges my feelings and tactics pretty well. I have a feeling just keeping on topic here is a good start. And while I agree that I wouldn't go posting about trad in an aid forum, usually posts are referred out and/or moved to the proper forum. I don't know if this is part of the plan, I'd like to suggest that all new off-topic thread be referred and/or moved to the proper forum as they would be in any other forum. Beyond that, I'm for the lightest moderating touch possible. If you are going to allow non-climbing discussion here, as much as I'd like that, I fear that may create more situations that might provoke moderation. If we can climb rocks, I think we can handle this on a more "decentralized" basis. I choose immediacy over safety.

Thanks for reading, ladies.


climberchic


Sep 20, 2002, 4:05 PM
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Hey Doug~

Sorry for the delay...I figured I should post this here instead of in a PM in hopes of clarifying a few things to a lot.

Regarding you post about not looking at gender when editing posts. Here are my thoughts and I'd love to hear your feedback about it.

Please think of the forum this way.

Guys like to get together from time to time to bond and have a guys night out. Girls do the same. A time for girls to chat about girl stuff. Now imagine that your life's passion is a sport that is utterly female-dominated. You'd probably want to take those guys night out a little more often to keep from drowning in a pool of estrogen, right? This is all this is for us. A girls night out. For us to share and giggle and revisit our femininity.

Now what if a girl came along on one of your guys night outings? Changes the whole dynamic of why you're there in the first place, right? That's why we need our own, very little, space and are asking the guys to respect that. Most of us take all of our climbing trips with guys and are subjected to all that masculinity and accept it because, for the most part, it's fun. But it can get old and it's good to spend some time with other women sometimes.

But we don't want to completely exclude the guys. Just like fiend and others who grew up with a very strong female influence in his life, guys may have helpful advice based on their experiences with females that we'd love them to share.

~Erica


Partner polarwid


Sep 20, 2002, 4:27 PM
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ERICA---
Feel free to post some of the stuff in my PM to you in this forum, I would rather you quote me here, I did not feel like babbling on an open forum, so you got a PM of my babble instead...

And to LIKETHEGODDESS---love that name, like PRINCESS DI right? my name is POLARWID, not WIND, as my last name is WIDDIS. Don't worry, half the site calls me that anyway!!!


rock_diva


Sep 20, 2002, 7:18 PM
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Nicely put Erica! I know very few female climbers and I love the fact that we now have a place to gather... in this forum!

I agree with posting threads about things other than climbing. I like to hear perspective from other adventurous women -- there really don't seem to be too many of us! We're considered "one of the guys" so often -- it's nice to be a lady every occasionally -- a lady who loves to climb!


likethegoddess


Sep 20, 2002, 10:12 PM
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Quote:And to LIKETHEGODDESS---love that name, like PRINCESS DI right? my name is POLARWID, not WIND, as my last name is WIDDIS. Don't worry, half the site calls me that anyway!!!

LOL. I guess you caught if you caught the "where your username comes from" thread. (I'm Diana. Like the princess! No, like the goddess.)

Uh, err, um, sorry about the wid/wind thing. Absentmindedness runs rampant in me.


katydid


Sep 21, 2002, 9:41 AM
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I'm a little late to this thread, as I accidentally deleted my first reply.

Just a few thoughts:

-- "Spamming" is generally what internet-people use to refer to junk mail. While I think everyone on this site would rather avoid spam, I think the two we ought to consider more pertinent are trolling and flaming. "Trolling" is looking for a fight (posting something inflamatory to get an argument, or "flame war" going), and "flaming" is ... well ... I think everyone knows what flaming is.

There have been some discussions of the "don'ts" in previous posts, but I think we ought to look at some of the DOs as well. Here are some of the positive things I think we ought to encourage:

-- Respect your fellow posters. If something upsets you, take the time to think about what they've said rather than just posting an angry reply. We can't all be expected to have the same opinion about things, and if we stop to think, we may just learn something.

-- Respect the forum moderators. If a post is removed and you receive a private message, keep discussion about it in the PM's. If you REEEEEALLY want to post part of the PM discussion in the forum, ask first. If they say "no", don't post it. Private messages are, well, private. And it doesn't do anyone any favours to try to breed dissent by posting private discussions publicly.

-- Remember that not everyone is your age, ability, ethnic background, and so forth. Although the Community forum can get pretty raunchy at times, this is a "family" site, and we have some pretty young posters out there. We also have people not from North America. Although we can't key in to everyone's cultural sensitivities all the time, just remember that what may be funny to you may be offensive to others. (See: "when jokes go too far" thread)

I can go on forever (I was a sysop for a couple of years for a software company), but I'll shuddup now.

Kate


climberchic


Sep 21, 2002, 11:01 AM
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Great guidelines Kate

Do you mind if we cut an paste, well, most of these? Once a consensus is reached, we were going to put them in a thread that will be immediately locked and linked to the forum description.


katydid


Sep 21, 2002, 12:14 PM
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Help yourself.

Kate


overlord


Sep 22, 2002, 10:38 PM
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well, obviously, dont put up with any machismo stuff we guys are well capable of. also you could discuss anything from latest fashion to girls "problems". maybe even think about having some topisc restricted so only a gorl could read them. i mean, some reall GIRL stuff, like which Allways you prefer.

CLIMB ON


climbsomething


Sep 22, 2002, 10:48 PM
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There is censorship, and there is courtesy.

There is dictatorship, and there are guidelines.

Oh, bah, Erica says it better!


katydid


Sep 23, 2002, 5:15 AM
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HUH?

Okay. I see a problem happening, and I think it needs to be addressed. I was going to PM, but since it's been brought out in the open both here and in the Community forum, we might as well discuss it here and now.

Mods: You have a hard, crappy job to do. (I know. I've done it. ) That said, something you can do to make it easier, is set IN THE GUIDELINES what will get a post deleted. Then, if a post is deleted, you can point out that guideline to the poster. Suggestions for what qualifies as a "delete": bad language, spamming and stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the forum topic (actually, this probably should be moved).

The problem with saying "you can't say this," is that if someone wants to cite that sort of thing as an example, their post automatically qualifies for deletion as well. Not to mention you run the risk of losing some major learning opportunities, and drawing some dividing lines you might regret later.

Suggestion from an old, moldy sysop: It's OK to leave flames and generally rude posts up; just handle them tactfully, and if they get out of hand, PM them and say "OK, that's enough". Take it to PM's, and if they want to argue there and you can't seem to calm the situation down, drop it. Chances are they just want an argument.

(My all-time favourite was a guy on one of the forums I ran at work who told me "You should be in the Moral Majority" because I got rid of a post that contained the f-word -- how far from reality could that be???)

(Warning: I can be blunt when I feel the urge. Here comes some of it now.)

To be honest, when I read "highly moderated" in the description of the forum, I figured that meant that someone would be reading the posts on a regular basis and publicly (sp?) cooling things down when necessary. Now. I'm not a mod, so technically this is not "my" forum per se, so I can't tell you what to do. From my experience, though, I can tell you that you're running the risk of p!ssing off a lot of people (especially the guys), and that's not a good thing, either -- look how supportive they are of us! Do you really want to lose that?

My three cents. Do with it what you will.

Kate

PS -- Erica (I think it was you, Erica, I'm having amnesia from not enough coffee), great post in the Community forum regarding this issue!


edit: to add the PS. I still can't figure out how to spell publically/publicly/publicaly -- whatever...

[ This Message was edited by: katydid on 2002-09-23 05:39 ]


slowpoke


Sep 25, 2002, 12:53 PM
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Registered: Sep 23, 2002
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Ladies Room: Forum Guidelines Discussion [In reply to]
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I am a 27 year old white woman with no issues (at least that I am aware of) regarding gender, race or ethnicity. I don't care who you are or where you came from as long as your not a jerk to the rest of the world. I do however find comfort for whatever reason in the presence of other women from time to time. I just enjoy talking to people that understand things the way I do. I also get annoyed when the hens come out so I don't really have a preference as to who would like to contribute to this site. I do not want to exclude anyone so, guys if you have things to say or ask feel free.


likethegoddess


Oct 7, 2002, 3:32 PM
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I'm wondering if you mods ever finalized the forum guidelines. Can you post them up if you have?


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