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krustyklimber
Sep 20, 2002, 2:41 AM
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Jds100,
Very well put.
Thank you for bringing some clarity to this issue.
Jeff
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euroford
Sep 20, 2002, 3:18 AM
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okay, with all drama aside;
I supremely respect the poeple setting routes and properly placing bolts and repairing old bolt. despite being a little new at the climbing thing, I'm a registered profesional engineer who would like to use his tools, experience and knowledge to lend a little help.
obviously there is a good bit of debate as to what fasteners work well in what applications, and what fasteners are worth working with whatsoever. I would like to see some of this debate resolved into a cohesive knowedge based backed up by real world testing.
i would love to do some testing, and i would love to contribute to this knowedge base, but i obviously don't know everything (i hope nobody thought i was alluding to thinking i do), so this should be a team effort.
so first off, what fasteners do you think we should be looking at??
bolts i can think of:
Hilti HVS adhesive anchors
Hilti HVU adhesive anchors
Hilti HSL expansion anchors
Hilti HDA self-undercutting anchors
Hilti Kwik bolts
Hilti HST expansion anchors
Ramset/Redhead Trubolt wedge anchors
Ramset/Redhead sleeve anchors
Rawl Power Bolts
Fixe expansion anchors
Fixe adhesive anchors
what about loads?? i can test for both pullout and shear at the same time.
what about materials??
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roughster
Sep 20, 2002, 3:58 AM
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Euro:
I would love to see both stats on the 5 piece Powers(Rawl) Carbon Steel (Grade 5) vs the Powers 5 Piece Stainless Steel.
Most of the time I buy the stainless steel, but a few times all the local supplier has had is the Carbon Steel variety and have bought those as well.
What most people don't realize, is most Rawl 5 pieces out there are the crabon Steel type not the stainless steel which are almost 2X the cost.
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billcoe_
Sep 20, 2002, 4:18 AM
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Sweet reply Euro:
I'd like to see some testing of a couple of Mfg various products in different stone. Specifically basalt and granite since I don't generally trust any in the Smith Rocks welded tuft.
Since most of the bolts out there are Carbon Steel wedge anchors, but the current conventional wisdom is to use stainless, I'd certainly want some stainless compared, both "concrete" and "climbing specific".
Furthermore, let me be the first to offer to send you some for the testing. If you show up with the machine, the time and the smarts, the least the rest of us can do is offer to pay for the hard costs and front the bolts.
Let me know what you want and where to send it and I'm onboard, although it sounds like you have a Hilti source.
Krusty????? Whatta say buddy?
Euro, may I suggest this turns into an artical for permant post at rc.com? Be nice for everybody to have access to the data in the future.
Regards:
Bill
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krustyklimber
Sep 20, 2002, 4:36 AM
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What do I say?
I say right on!!! I will not only add half a dozen Fixe bolts to the pot, but offer to lend my new found article writing skills too! There's considerable HTML required.
So let me know, what you would like me to contribute, and I'd be glad to kick in!
Jeff
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rrrADAM
Sep 20, 2002, 6:03 AM
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Good reply...
There's a saying in my business:
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Welcome to the site 'euro'.
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atg200
Sep 20, 2002, 2:17 PM
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Just come out climbing with me and i'll hide a nice big piece of desert sandstone in your pack to test later...
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krustyklimber
Sep 20, 2002, 6:10 PM
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See this is the real problem...
Where are you going to do this testing? Hopefully not on a crag, so you will need samples of like 5 types of rock... Granite, gniess, limestone, sandstone and tuff, and that is just scratching the surface. I know of four totally different sandstone types, and that granite from diffrerent formations has varying hardness and strengths, same goes for gniess, And welded tuff... we could go on forever with that, even the tuff at Smith alone has huge variances. And I have forgotten all about the many types of brittle basalts.
And what about hand drilled hole vs power drilled, I hand drill all my holes still so that is an issue that concerns me.
I didn't want to cloud things up but I just wanted to make sure this test covers all the bases.
Jeff
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rockprodigy
Sep 20, 2002, 6:49 PM
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If you want to save time/money, I would just stick to testing sandstone and tuff...maybe limestone too. I think most reasonable people consider bolts in granite and quartzite to be pretty bomber. Realistically, a road trip will be necessary, or you could just mail the tester around to volunteers throughout the country who want to test their local rock....
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mikedano
Sep 20, 2002, 6:57 PM
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I wonder if a geologist would be helpful to this endeavor, adding insight into rock types and such.
I, however, am neither a geologist nor an engineer. I prefer to sit back on my liberal arts ass and make snide comments in the corner. Suckers.
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billcoe_
Sep 20, 2002, 7:30 PM
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Opps, might have to withdraw my offer of free bolts Euro.
I hate to be the guy dropping Rat Turds into the sugar bowl here, but after thinking further, and please remember that not only am I not an engineer, and can barely spell the word, I also do not claim to have 1/2 the "horse sense" you do. BUT, this device appears to only do pullout (tensile) testing and fairly statically at that. So would your statement of "TEST THE DAMN BOLTS!" be only for pullout? If so, then forget about it. 1st, when someone falls onto a bolt, 99 percent of the time, it is the shear value that is called into play. As you can clearly see from my previous post, Tensile strength as tested on these products is 40-50 percent higher than shear anyway, but it's fairy uncommon that these are driven straight upinto a roof. Next, think about a fall, it is shear that is the prime factor, not tensile except in that occasional roof.
So, concerning the "the attached picture is of a Comten model FGC2000 pullout bolt tester. these are used for testing bolts,
acnchors ect. for pullout strength." I checked the potential site: isn't the name actually spelled Com-ten? http://www.com-ten.com/capacity.htm#1
if not than I have the wrong site: but your explanation "used for testing bolts,
acnchors ect. for pullout strength" seems to indicate tensile testing ONLY is the test this product will perform.
If it will only tensile test, then I have to totally disagree with your claim "IMO: these things should be in WIDESPREAD use amongst the climbing community."
I would have to say that they have next to NO value in the climbing community if that is the case. However, setting up a jig to shear test bolted anchors would still interest me as this would duplicate more closely a real situation, so if I am mistaken here, and you have this figured out, speak up please. I obviously not an engineer such as youself.
BTW: MIKEDANO, referencing your post "I prefer to sit back on my liberal arts ass and make snide comments"
MIKE- YOU DON'T WORRY NONE ABOUT SNIDE COMMENTS, KRUSTY AND I HAVE THAT COVERED ALREADY!!! OK?
Bill
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drector
Sep 20, 2002, 7:44 PM
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, from my totally novice point of view, that shear strength of a bolt doesn't change from when the manufacturer rated it to when it is stuck in the rock. If a shear test is performed in rock, it is only to test the strength of the rock, or the quality of the installation, not the bolt. Since every piece of rock is a tiny bit different, I'd be reluctant to believe any test results unless the rock always blows apart at too low a pressure.
If the rock does break a little then the pull-out strength becomes very important because the bolt will bend and start to pull out even when a shear force is applied because of the leverage. Picture a rubber hose in the hole... If you pull it down, it's gonna pull out. That's what a bolt will do if the rock starts to break since the missing rock at the surface allows the bolt to bend around the radius and pull out.
I still doubt any testing is needed. I've only heard of a full-strength (3/8) bolt breaking on an overhang becasue the hanger levered the head of the bolt off. The rest of the bolt stayed intact and in the hole.
Dave
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billcoe_
Sep 20, 2002, 7:56 PM
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My point exactly exactly Dave. Except it will be the hanger that CUTS through the bolt even on a face intall and not an overhang. The bolt won't pull out, it will shear right off, like your example.
That's the failure point if I remember all this from reading the tests a hundred years ago: and those were carbon steel, and thus slightly stronger naterial than stainless.
Still, I'd like to see the results if it can be jigged to fairly accurately reflect the real world. My offer of free bolts is still open.
Bill
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wlderdude
Sep 20, 2002, 8:11 PM
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I can think of a time when pull out could be an issue. When you are starting to rappel off of chains. There you have quite a bit of pull out to deal with.
Now, if the rock is essecially solid, there is nothing really to worry about. But when it is soft rock, I could see it getting reamed out and comming loose. Falls would weaken the bolt placement and pull out when leaning back on them.
I don't know that that really happens, but seems to be a rather sensible failure mode.
Especially in rock that rope can cut through (sandstone).
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drector
Sep 20, 2002, 9:07 PM
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wlderdude,
That is the only situation where I've ever felt funny about a bolt; leaning up and out to rappel. Especially on older bolts. it just doesn't feel right pulling out on a bolt sort of like it's not right to pull out on a nut (ouch!)
Dave
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krustyklimber
Sep 21, 2002, 8:08 PM
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So like all bolt arguments, is this where this ends??? Wtih nothing settled, no concrete evidence (yes that's a pun), and no real conclusions?
This is why, until it was made personal, I had left both of these threads alone.
Where do we go from here?
Jeff
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euroford
Sep 21, 2002, 9:14 PM
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well i really would like to do some testing. and i can of course test for shear, in fact, shear testing is really easy, you just crank a load cell down with a come-along off the bolt anchor. i of course, will NOT be testing shear to failure.
When i have time will explane to yall how INCREDABLY CRITICAL pullout really is. i'll do a cad drawings showing the forces and convert it to .jpg to show you guys here on the site.
i guess a little techincal paper explaining the interaction of fources would do allot of good to include in an article.
i can easily aquire boulders from a supplier up in grapevine, it really won't cost me much of anything (except time, which is $265/hour except when donated :-) and a inconsiquential amount of cash.
but, i must get to the two items i trully need your help on.
substrate materials (rocks) and testing criteria (loads).
i'll test two ways for pullout, one to a set REAL WORLD STANDARD. say, the average strength of rope, and then to failure. the "spare" fource in between these numbers will give us a safty factor.
i'll test shear to our "standard" value plus say, 10%. i would love to test to failure, but unlike the com-ten, a shear test rig is kind of dangerous when it fails.
on the other hand, maybe doing ANY testing to failure may be a bad idea. if i don't test to failure, (unless a bolt fails at our predetermined load, then it goes to the junk heap and gets flamed on the bbs) i can leave these bolders setting in my field for say 6 months exposed to the elements (sorry, not many freezes will be applied in dallas), then go back and test again.
i really want to do this, but i want to do it with the help of the rock climbing community, bill, i'm sorry you don't want to contribute any bolts. i would really appreciate it if poeple would. especially the "climbing specific" models. all of the construction companys will send me some when i tell them who i work for.
bill: yeah thats the correct company, but those tensile testers are not what i'm talking about (see photo). wrong portion of the website.
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krustyklimber
Sep 22, 2002, 8:09 PM
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Euro,
Have you ever priced large boulders?
If you make and have the kind of money for that, the insignificant cost of bolts isn't adding much.
I do not make much but am still willing to kick in a half a dozen bolts, but by doing so I am giving away a whole route on my new crag! Something I will not do lightly.
This test to be done right will require a very large number of bolts and holes, which will require even more drill bits and such. Where is this gonna end?
And all to get another set of specs that are already available to us.
I use only Fixe hardware on my crag, not because it is manufactured as "climbing specific", but because we have a thievery problem here. I am not about to put removeable five-piece rawls in only to have them stolen. With the Fixe bolts I can install them, and put the hanger on and "stake" the threads so not even the hangers can be stolen!
This all sounds like a good scam to end up with enough bolts to start a crag! But that's just the Oliver Stone in me... I hope!
Jeff
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lieven
Sep 22, 2002, 9:37 PM
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Hi, I'm from Belgium and some time ago our club the VBSF did test the bolts they use.
After having drilled a hole in the rock (limestone), the bolt was placed. After half an hour, a construction was placed above the bolt and a very great force was generated on the bolt.
The bolt didn't come out, instead a piece of solid rock with the bolt in the middle of it, was broken out.
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euroford
Sep 23, 2002, 12:12 AM
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i can come up with my own bolts. and yes, i've priced the rock. the cost should be inconsiquential.
i have no intrest in placing any of my own bolts. in fact, i couldn't have any less of an intrest in actully useing bolt on routes. my intrests firmly lie in trad climbing. this does however, sound like a fun project, and one that i can lend some profesionallity to.
are there other specifications available? i've not really found any write ups simular to what i plan to do, which is why i plan to do it.
as far as the bolt topic goes, route setters, keep your bolts and set routes with them. i can obtain this easily and cheeply enough. drills and bits are not a problem either. i have quite a stash of equipment. (i do have access to a hilti hammer drill).
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philbox
Moderator
Sep 23, 2002, 12:52 AM
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Go to this site for a handy head start on the whole issue.
http://www.saclimb.co.za/bolting.html
Keep me in the loop with all the info you come up with please. I`m very interested in your proposed testing dude.
Oh yeah, please test some of the glue ins as well, particularly when recessed to keep the hanger as close to the rock face as poss.
Tis a good thing that you are doing me lud och.
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euroford
Sep 23, 2002, 1:40 AM
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i'm really fastinated with hilit's new epoxy anchors. they look like some super tough stuff.
as rock can be a very inconsistant substrate, these anchors should work really well!!
http://www.cintec.com/
check those suckers out. i inspected some of those installed in prudential tower 1 in chicago. you'd bring whole crag down before those would budge, and it don't matter what kind of choss you anchored them in to either!
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philbox
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Sep 23, 2002, 2:16 AM
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Hey dude way over the top there. No climber is going to take all that extra gear to the crag to use this system. Except of course if you are going to emulate that famous climber who hauled a compressor up a big wall and bolted it to the rock.
When I mentioned glue ins I was referring to a simple 2 pack cartridge system for gluing ringbolts. There are two types of glue one a polyester and the other a two pack epoxy.
...Phil...
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tedwarski
Sep 23, 2002, 2:36 AM
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Why clip a bolt when a bomb-proof Hex fits in that crack?
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euroford
Sep 23, 2002, 9:47 AM
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word.
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