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ktwo
Sep 20, 2002, 4:02 PM
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In regard to climbing movies:
Most of them are $20-$30, which is way more than I could ever spend on movies!!! I know they need their money, but so do I. I like to watch them, but I just don't have the cash, how bout you?
***EDITED TO CLARIFY SUBJECT***
[ This Message was edited by: polarwid on 2002-09-20 10:37 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ktwo on 2002-09-23 08:56 ]
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jammer
Sep 20, 2002, 4:26 PM
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marc ... he's talking about climbing videos. Unfortunatelly, there is not much of a market out there to bring the price down. I buy them so I can study moves. Glad they are out there!
CLIMB ON!
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wlderdude
Sep 20, 2002, 4:34 PM
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Yeah, the market for authentic climbing videos is so small, I don't think anyone can make any money with them, even at $20-$30 a pop.
MI2, Cliffhanger and Verical Limit all made money, though!
While it does not necisarily encourage the production of a lot more videos, sometimes climbing shops rent them.
You CAN resort to some of those "Trailsides" videos or other PBS or travel channel style, but I don't think they are any cheaper. But still, much better than Hollywood makebelieve.
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mother_sheep
Sep 20, 2002, 4:37 PM
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Could somebody please drop some names of videos that would be good for learning technique? I see ads for videos all the time but I'm never sure what to buy. It would be cool if the Freedom of the Hills book was on video! Tons of good stuff in that book!
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climbincajun
Sep 20, 2002, 4:42 PM
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You should get 'Hard Grit' if you wanna learn technique. Watch the video, then try to follow their style and moves.
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estwing
Sep 20, 2002, 4:44 PM
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Check out John Long's how to rock climb video, its the best!
Sam
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erikchouse
Sep 20, 2002, 6:43 PM
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Not so much for extended videos, but if you just want a quick shot of a specific technique, tryhttp://www.climbingmotion.com/gen/sport/climbing.html they've got all the video's in QT, MPEG, and AVI. Have Fun!
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horatio_felacio
Sep 20, 2002, 6:51 PM
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they are definitely too damn expensive.
why do most of them play that gay-ass techno music? man, that s--- makes my ears bleed! i mean seriously, who thinks those people who are hip-hopped out and wear the yellow sunglasses are just a bunch of gay lords? i know i do.
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mother_sheep
Sep 20, 2002, 6:51 PM
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Erik. . .that's GREAT!!!!! Thanks!
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wlderdude
Sep 20, 2002, 8:41 PM
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Yeah, I would rather see people climbing to something like John Denver for a change. Outdoorsy music. This is recreation in the great outdoors, not fighting!
Take me home, country road, to the place, I belong. . .
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fiend
Sep 20, 2002, 9:03 PM
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horatio_felacio do you have a mullet by any chance?
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scrappydoo
Sep 20, 2002, 9:13 PM
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I buy a video if the soundtrack included "dueling banjos"
More seriously, what are the best climbing videos? What videos have images of sick moves with great filming?
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hangdoggypound
Sep 20, 2002, 9:17 PM
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If they played John Denver songs, then they wouldn't be able to get $30 a pop for the videos..."You know he'd be a poor man if he never saw an eagle FLY...Rocky Mountain High."
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huggybone
Sep 20, 2002, 9:36 PM
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Horatio found a new home.
[ This Message was edited by: huggybone on 2002-09-20 14:37 ]
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takeit4granite
Sep 20, 2002, 10:05 PM
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Turn the volume down if you don't like the music or bad language!
Good vids are:
Beyond Gravity by Black and White
It has good rock ,ice, mixed and alpine footage!
Rampage because it has Squamish in it!
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horatio_felacio
Sep 20, 2002, 11:09 PM
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no mullet. i've been wanting to grow one though, so now may be the time. seriously, how do you people stand that crap? i'd much rather see somebody crankin to some shortest straw, holiday in cambodia, or anything like that, rather than the dancing music. i'll bet you people think the bandaloop dancers are cool too huh?
damn straight huggy!
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horatio_felacio
Sep 20, 2002, 11:12 PM
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do you think about clubbing, baggy pants, "yo", while you're climbing?
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earsen
Sep 21, 2002, 7:38 AM
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With digital cams becoming as accessible as they are now, I'm tempted to make some vids. They'll probably suck, but at $20-30 a pop, I'll give it a shot anyway. I could probably sell a sweet video of me taking a dump on the net if I gave it a cool name like "droppin bombs" or "crimpin dookie II, the dook returns"
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boogirl
Sep 21, 2002, 5:45 PM
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Maybe climbing videos are expensive because some people borrow and copy -- of course, I would never think of such a thing.
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rendog
Sep 21, 2002, 5:54 PM
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takeit4granite
you nailed those two right on the head.
Rampage has some awsome footage on it. Beyond gravity has some of the best vid on mixed that I've seen. Bought it then someone decided that they needed it more than I did. *read stolen*
I hope it spontaneously combusts and sets thier house on fire
"D"
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camhead
Sep 21, 2002, 6:55 PM
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Dude, everything climbing-related is frickin expensive, because it is such a specialized market. And because they know that we are all addicts.
Me, I can't buy climbing videos because I don't have a TV. Plus, they are the price of a WC Forged Friend, plus they are always about bouldering. BORING!!!!
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wildtrail
Sep 22, 2002, 6:50 AM
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I'm guessing the typical situation.
Either it is a supply and demand thing:
Climbing isn't nearly as big as many things, like football for example. The smaller the market, the larger the price.
Or, it is just a simple "American" thing. If available, it will be bought. That being true, then why not ask a "reasonably" expensive price. Profit, the word is profit.
I suspect its a supply and demand thing. Not a huge demand so the supply is minimal, therefore the price is driven up. Either way, profit always plays a role. Why wouldn't it? Profit is the purpose of business, but methinks that it isn't a "take advantage" situation.
Steve
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phil_nev
Sep 23, 2002, 6:09 AM
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I used to have an awesome climbing vid, till i lent it to someone who hasnt returned it.
U KNOW WHO U ARE!!
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mreardon
Sep 23, 2002, 8:14 PM
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Okay, I've heard the spray and being that I make climbing vids ("Climb On!" with three to date and a fourth in production) here's the ugly truth:
Let's start with duplication costs: Covers cost $.10-.25 apiece with a minimum order of 2750 (2500 plus 10% override). The tape (with shrinkwrap) costs $.90-1.50 depending on quantity. Then there is the artwork. If you do the artwork yourself and can make it camera ready, then you saved $600. Of course this means that you spent at least $5,000 on computer equipment and software to save $600 so it might not be the most cost-effective.
The next big cost is making the vid. To make a proper video, the camera should be AT LEAST three chip in quality. Anything less looks like it was made with a homevideo system. These cameras start around $2200 (though lately there have been sales for as low as $1600). But owning only one is not necessarily the best. It's not that exciting to see someone's ass from 40 feet below because you were too lazy to either get the person to climb it again from another angle, or too cheap to purchase another camera. Personally I have two cameras but still make the climbers do the climb I'm filming anywhere from 3-6 times. And you'd be surprised to know how many different ways a person can do what they thought was the same beta (the horror stories of the editing room!). The tape only costs $10 per hour (extend the tape, lose the quality) but plan on filming 20+ hours per video you want to do. I have more than 150 hours of footage to date, yet only released 3 hours on tape.
Now let's edit this masterpiece. Plan on the aforementioned $5,000 for the computer, though to have the good set-up it will likely cost closer to $10,000-$15,000. You can get by on cheap software, but again, the quality will show. And as for the music, make sure you license it. Sure you may want the latest Incubus song, but their lawyers will own all your profits and ensure you never make another video if you don't request, and pay for, permission. Incubus only cost about $100,000 per song, or you can find a buddy and use their stuff for free. I got lucky here and have gold/platinum artists who owe me some favors and make everything from classical to punk. Personally I hate techno.
Now you spent the money and are ready for your opus. And you are ready to travel. Don't forget that every day you skip work, you're not getting paid, but at least you get to continue to pay money out to travel to where you want to film. Sure you can live cheap, but chips and salsa still cost a little bit, as well as gas for the car, etc. And what about the climbers you're filming? Are you really not going to pick up the tab and at least buy them dinner for risking their life and missing out on what they want to do to hang with you for YOUR film?
Distibution: You've spent your money and now you're ready to release the film. Let's assume you did everything for under $10,000. So at $20 each, you only need to sell 500 videos right? Wrong. The $20 is retail. You will sell them to the retail outlets for $10-12 each because they need to make money on them. The good news is that each store will purchase 2-10 of them, you just have to call each of them, sell them (how's that phone bill?), then pay for the shipping. Or you can get a distributor, who in turn will need to make money, so you'll be selling them to the distributor for $5-8 each. But even at $5 you only need to sell 2,000 and you'll break even for the $10,000 you spent.
Now the real ugly truth - climbers don't buy videos. They rent, borrow, copy, and steal the videos. This being the case, a good video, with a good distributor, with no other videos being released at the same time, might sell 1,000 units. That's it. Congratulations, if you only spent $10,000, you just lost about $5,000.
But don't worry, at least you spent four months (or more) filming, and not climbing (you don't get much climbing in when you're perched on the rock with a camera). But wait, there's hope, I forgot about marketing!
I can speak from experience that advertising is expensive! A full page ad in a magazine costs $5,000+. And so far, there is no one who will honestly tell you that spending the money on a full page ad has made a difference in selling their videos.
I've been written up, reviewed, had ads, etc. and the only thing that has ever made a difference in the sales has been purely word of mouth. That's where I got really lucky. For some reason, people seem to keep spreading the news, and each year I've seen an increase in sales with no additional marketing spent.
I never made the videos to make money. I did them because I like climbing and saw a niche that no one else had done. I also had most of the equipment (I make theatrical movies for a living), distribution, and all the music covered. My break-even was a lot less and in turn I've been able to sell the vids for less than most folks. I still haven't made any money (and likely never will), but that's because any money that I do make, I put into another climbing vid. Hence the reason why there are three so far, with more to come. A couple other folks did the same (Master of Stone and Hard Grit are the two most profitable). However, most lost their asses, and later videos from them dropped off in quality.
In the end, if you can afford it, I recommend making one because the experience is very much worth all the effort and expense. But the next time that you borrow a friends vid, or complain about the quality of what you see, at least you'll have a little better understanding of why that is.
As for the stuff I've done, you can check out www.tgrs.com if you want to read, or to see about 30 clips worth (there will be 100 over the course of the year) at www.megalithusa.com.
Just my two cents,
Michael
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wildtrail
Sep 24, 2002, 6:06 AM
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Blah, blah, blah.
Make it cheaper!
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