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gb3985
Apr 3, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Ok heres my $.02. You loaned your friend your gear and knew that there was the possibility of a few falls.You didn't loan the gear for her to fall on several times on purpose.
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el_layclimber
Apr 4, 2007, 12:26 AM
Post #27 of 106
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Loaned my rope to a boyscout once who gave it back with a coreshot.
"Oh, yeah, I'm a boyscout, I wouldn't ruin your gear, scout's honor."
"Next time you are going to try that route, I recommend you freesolo it, poopstain. I'll give you a good spot."
Ruined 60m x 10.5mm dynamic rope: $125 dollars.
Lesson about loaning out gear: see above.
Having irrefutable proof that boyscouts really are jackasses, thus giving me good reason to tell them to stfu the next time one of them wants to show me how to start a campfire: Priceless.
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iamthewallress
Apr 4, 2007, 12:40 AM
Post #28 of 106
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Not a lending situation, but I once went climbing w/ a relative n00b who funked every HB nut I placed. Bending them all up and freaking out a few of the wires. At around $15 a peice I wasn't going to ask her to replace them all (back then, you still could), because it was my responsability in some ways as the person taking her climbing to guess what kinds of mistakes she might make and stop her from making them before that happened. But I sure was bummed that my gear wasn't as pristine as it was before the climb. A small nut w/ bent up wires just don't place as good.
But...I used them, and that was part of what happened when they got used. I learned to not even lend those things to myself unless I really needed them after they quit making them. B/c when you need one of those, you really need it.
I wouldn't lend my to Brutus or Dingus or God. Hell, I'd even give their co-owner the hairy eyeball if he aided on the good set.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Apr 4, 2007, 12:42 AM)
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powair
Apr 4, 2007, 1:28 AM
Post #29 of 106
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Im a pretty new trad leader and my rack has alot of holes in it. The guy I borrow gear from has no problem giving it to me. We have an understanding though, if I get it stuck or break it I dont get to borrow it anymore. And since I dont have much money thats alot of incentive to take care of his stuff.
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josephineN
Apr 4, 2007, 1:40 AM
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I find this thread to be quite interesting.
I am the person that borrowed his gear.
His question was posted prior to speaking with me, and since that time he has not bothered to correct the misinformation. Although I've waited patiently, I will correct what he has not.
This is the sum of my original post on redriverclimbing.com (http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=8202&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
"The situation was that a friend and I went to Red Rocks and took a class on beginning trad leading. In the class, the instructor had us take a fall on his tricam while being backed up on TR. Having never placed a piece before in my life, I found this to be quite thrilling. Especially the thought immediately after the fall "oh my god, it held!" icon_smile.gif
"So, in my excitement, I decide to repeat this great trick by placing 1 piece of each kind (stopper, cam, and hex) and taking a "fall" on them. By fall, am not talking about Gaar's 20 foot whipper which bent the piece. My waist was at the piece and i had a 24" sling attached to my lead rope (backed up on TR so i won't deck) - i fell maybe 2-3 feet. I had a wonderful time and feel a lot more comfortable about how the gear works.
"The reprimand came because the 3 pieces I used were borrowed gear and the owner was not present. (We borrowed a rack to take the class) The owner was Quite Upset when he found out. I have offered to purchase all 3 pieces i fell on, as I have apparently shortened the life of the pieces."
when the discussion started going astray on that site, i re-emphasized the heart of his concern
"i think the concern was the intent - not that it happened. as in i MEANT to fall on the gear - not i accidentally came off and took a fall."
The fall was a 0.06 - 0.1 factor fall (yes i did the math) the pieces were not damaged. I offered to replace the undamaged pieces the moment I received is e-mail indicating he was upset. He declined my offers repeatedly.
There was quite a bit of discussion about the "Jedi Master" who had no gear. This is completely incorrect. Malcolm Daly had plenty of gear, and I did fall on his tricam. However, he had a limited amt of time/space considering this was a 3 hour class with other students. Myself and 2 other climbers went the following day to repeat what we did in class. (yes there were 2 belayers - one for the TR and one for lead)
For the record, I did not fall on drfelatio's tricam as he indicated in his post. I fell on Malcolm Daly's tricam. If he would have asked me which pieces I fell on, he would know this.
I also feel the comparison to high-factor falls on a rope with low-factor falls on gear is inaccurate. A high-factor fall on a rope damages the rope. The rope should be replaced. A low-factor fall on gear is what gear is designed for. Whenever something is borrowed and damaged - whether a $50 cam or a $5 coffee cup - it should be replaced. that's common courtesy and common sense.
Basically, what this boils down to is that there are two types of ways of looking at trad gear. From what I've seen is that the majority of people I climb with view gear as a tool that is to be used the same a bolt. They see a fall on gear as simply a fall on gear - whether intentional or not.
Then there are others who believe either "the leader must not fall" or a variant of it "gear is for emergency use only - never test your gear or you may weaken/damage it." While large falls can, and will, damage gear - gear is designed for force factors that they will, most likely, NEVER encounter.
Obviously, I belong to this former way of thinking that gear should be used. The author belongs to the latter - and that is the crux of the issue. I assumed he subscribed to the way I see things, and he assumed I see things his way. Now I know to ask more questions should I borrow gear again.
I apologize for not posting sooner to clear up the misconceptions; i thought he would do that on his own.
Josephine
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stevej
Apr 4, 2007, 1:48 AM
Post #31 of 106
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Josephine, I hope you learned your lesson, never trust a dood named DR COCKSUCKER no matter how good a friend he purports to be. You can fall on my trad junk anytime you want, its all been fallen on 3 billion times and still doesn't break.
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iamthewallress
Apr 4, 2007, 1:52 AM
Post #32 of 106
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Josephine...Interesting to hear your perspective.
Maybe Mal can prodeal you the "dammaged" items, and you can get the first 3 peices on your rack at a bargain.
I'd be bummed if an experience friend borrowed my gear for whipping practice, as I tend to be extra careful on borrowed stuff just b/c I think it's polite.
But I think you deserve some beginners slack since you were borrowing the gear for a "learn trad" seminar where the instructor was encouraging you to fall on gear.
Like I said in my post above, if you're climbing w/ a beginner (or in this case, loaning gear to one), it's partly your responsability to guess the modes of error and warn against them or otherwise live with the consequences.
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 4:12 AM
Post #33 of 106
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iamthewallress wrote: I'd be bummed if an experience friend borrowed my gear for whipping practice, as I tend to be extra careful on borrowed stuff just b/c I think it's polite. But I think you deserve some beginners slack since you were borrowing the gear for a "learn trad" seminar where the instructor was encouraging you to fall on gear. Like I said in my post above, if you're climbing w/ a beginner (or in this case, loaning gear to one), it's partly your responsability to guess the modes of error and warn against them or otherwise live with the consequences.
Excellent post and I agree on all points:
1) When you borrow something, be it a rack, a rope, or a friend's car, you treat it with extra care. You treat it how THEY want it to be treated, not how you would treat it as if it were yours.
2) You're absolutely right. She deserves some slack and I think I've been somewhat reasonable in trying to give it to her. The following is an excerpt from my initial e-mail to her:
In reply to: Josie, I want you to know that I am unhappy with the way you used my gear when you went to Red Rocks. However, I can only blame myself because I should have informed you, before you left, what is and what is not acceptable when you borrow someone else's gear....
3) Again, you're absolutely correct. As you can see from my e-mail to her as well as in my posts in this thread and in the one on redrivercliming.com, I blame myself for not discussing this with her ahead of time.
The whole point of me raising this issue with her is not to be pissed off at her, but to educate her as to what I think is proper climber ethics in regards to borrowing gear.
(This post was edited by drfelatio on Apr 4, 2007, 4:20 AM)
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caughtinside
Apr 4, 2007, 5:42 PM
Post #34 of 106
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she took 2 foot falls on your gear? is it really all that wonked? Can't you just bend it back? And if not, just take her up on her offer to replace the pieces. It's obviously distressing to you, she probably already thinks you're a total dork about your precious gear, so you might as well get some new stuff, stop making her feel bad, and put all this unpleasantness behind you.
there's no such think (I think) as proper climber ethics with regard to borrowing gear. It's personal. You loan it to a beginner and you're surprised as to what they do with it? If they don't know how to use it, how will they know how to respect it in the manner you think it deserves?
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reg
Apr 4, 2007, 6:13 PM
Post #35 of 106
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josephineN - glad to hear the other side - drF sounds ah bit uh..high strung! if he feels any gear is "messed up" buy him a new one and then don't borrow any more. join the cam-of-the-month club!
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dingus
Apr 4, 2007, 6:22 PM
Post #36 of 106
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Its clear some of you don't 'get' the whole tool thing.
It is what it is though. Some of you will never get it.
DMT
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moose_droppings
Apr 4, 2007, 6:24 PM
Post #37 of 106
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When did threads from the "Ladies Room" start making it to the front page?
What?, You mean this isn't the ladies room?
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reg
Apr 4, 2007, 6:24 PM
Post #38 of 106
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wha? you mean "it's a tool and it's supposed to get used" thing? like: " oh my god, i lent you my hammer and you, you hammered a nail with it!" thing? am i close?
(This post was edited by reg on Apr 4, 2007, 6:26 PM)
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whiskeybullets
Apr 4, 2007, 6:39 PM
Post #39 of 106
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Sp what I can summarize from reading this on both RRC.com and this site:
you lent someone who didn't know how to trad climb some cams and other pro.
they went to red rocks and took a class from Malcom Daly on how to trad climb.
they were enthusiastic and fell on the gear for extra practice.
you are now pissed off and you think it has something to do with your trad gear ethics.
man, you gave a beginner cams to learn to trad climb on. what did you expect? It's not like they asked for gear to red point a project. they asked for gear to go to a class that would teach them to trad climb. you should have expected that your gear would see some falls, even intentional ones.
and the hammer analogy is moot because the "journey man" in this case lent out his tools to someone in a class where they were learning, not to another professional. in this case i imagine a seasoned journeyman would not lend out his tools, and instead would tell the student to practice with a less important set off tools. although i must also say that having placed many cams in my life, I have never needed quite the preciscion found in a finely crafted set of hammers, chisels, or other tools. trad gear is, in my experience, a non-surgical instrument.
it sounds like drfelatio should be happy that someone actually took a whip onto his gear, because i'm guessing he never has.
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dingus
Apr 4, 2007, 6:47 PM
Post #40 of 106
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whiskeybullets wrote: and the hammer analogy is moot because the "journey man" in this case lent out his tools to someone in a class where they were learning, not to another professional.
Never been on a job site I see.
DMT
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drrock
Apr 4, 2007, 6:48 PM
Post #41 of 106
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Two sides to every story now aren't there? Now you (the OP) have created a rift between you and your friend. After you made the decision to lend her your gear and then found out about the "falls", you shoulda either 1) Sucked it up and made a silent decision to never ever lend your gear out again, or 2) allowed her to buy it from you. When I was more of a noob than I am now, I wouldn't have thought twice about falling on someone else's gear, rope, etc. With a few years under my belt, I can see dingus' tool perspective. When I lend my rack out (very rarely), I expect it to get fallen on and I am willing to take that risk. I also absolutely assume that the person that I am lending the gear to cannot afford to repay me even if they break or lose something. Otherwise they would have their own rack right? You should patch this thing up ASAP. It's tough to find good partners and she sounds reasonable, not to mention these falls sounded pretty darn minor. $0.02.
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clayman
Apr 4, 2007, 7:15 PM
Post #42 of 106
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drfelatio wrote: I recently let a friend borrow my rack. I knew full well that this person had never led trad before but that they were going to learn from some very reputable sources how to do so. Anyway, following their instruction (which involved a TR backed-up fall onto a tri-cam) my friend decided that they wanted to take a few more falls to become more acclimated to falling on gear. Now I know that when I allowed this person to borrow my gear I also allowed them to fall on it, but does that include falls that are taken on purpose? Is it ok to purposely take falls on gear you've borrowed from other people? I'm a little upset that this person felt that it was ok to fall all over my gear even though they didn't need to. I have always been under the impression that if you don't need to fall on a piece then you don't fall on it. Am I just overreacting or should I be upset? This person is nice enough, but I just feel a little taken advantage of. Is this feeling justified?
jeesh, why would you lend your rack to someone who's never led? Regardless of rather they have "reputable" instruction.
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drrock
Apr 4, 2007, 7:20 PM
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As a younger man, a friend and I borrowed a car from another guy we knew to go to the airport. On the way there, we got a flat tire, which we changed and had repaired. No big deal, right? When we returned the car, we told the owner what had happened. He looked disappointed in what had transpired, but never said anything. I didn't understand why he was disappointed for several years. A couple years later, I got my own car. I had a roommate that occasionally borrowed it. Once, he came back after going somewhere and told me that he had skidded on some ice, did a 360, and narrowly missed crashing my car. Well, after that I stopped leaving my car keys lying around the apartment and almost completely stopped loaning the car out. Comes down to that it's no big deal, unless it *is* a big deal. On the flip side, though, it really is a big deal to lose friends or climbing partners over stuff like this.
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jt512
Apr 4, 2007, 7:38 PM
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Assuming that Josephine has decided to build a rack of her own, why doesn't she start by buying new pieces identical to the one's she fell on. She gives the new pieces to the guy she borrowed the rack from, and receives his pieces in return. Everybody then wins. Josephine gets pieces she would have eventually bought anyway (albeit slightly used), and the original lender gets replacement pieces in better condition than those he lent out.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 4, 2007, 7:40 PM)
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iamthewallress
Apr 4, 2007, 7:54 PM
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jt512 wrote: Assuming that Josephine has decided to build a rack of her own, why doesn't she start by buying new pieces identical to the one's she fell on. She gives the new pieces to the guy she borrowed the rack from, and receives his pieces in return. Everybody then wins. Josephine gets pieces she would have eventually bought anyway (albeit slightly used), and the original lender gets replacement pieces in better condition than those he lent out. Jay
That's what I was thinking originally.
Although I gotta say that when I screw up in some relatively minor or unavoidable way, my inclination to set things right with the person that I've wronged (or who perceives that they were wronged) is inversely proportion to the degree to which the wronged person acts like an anus.
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 8:14 PM
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Many of you can't seem to see the forest for the trees.
Is it OK to take practice falls on borrowed gear?
That's all I wanna know.
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taino
Apr 4, 2007, 8:23 PM
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drfelatio wrote: Many of you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Is it OK to take practice falls on borrowed gear? That's all I wanna know.
That is not for us to decide FOR YOU. It's YOUR gear. YOU decide - preferably beforehand - and tell the borrower - again, preferably beforehand.
T
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reg
Apr 4, 2007, 8:24 PM
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yes.....but if you damage then you give cash or new piece with out having to be asked
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caughtinside
Apr 4, 2007, 8:29 PM
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drfelatio wrote: Many of you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Is it OK to take practice falls on borrowed gear? That's all I wanna know.
Would you loan out gear to someone who was going to aid on it?
Would you care if she took practice falls on your quickdraws on bolts?
Would you loan it to a friend who you know often pushes it and falls on gear?
EDIT:
you know, I reread a couple of the posts again. First, you said you felt taken advantage of. That's just a little weird. So much stuff can happen to gear aside from intentional falls. n00bs often overcam your cams, and generally suck at cleaning gear as well. Some of my pieces have little gouges from a good nut tool stabbing.
She was somewhere where she was encouraged to take falls. Now, you may have not forseen this, and she probably didn't either. But if I was in a class and the Authority Figure said it was cool, I'd probably be thinking more about implementing the lessons learned, than worrying if it would hurt your gear. Hey, Malcom says it's ok!
Finally, the falls weren't even real falls. It sounds like she took tiiiiny falls, not more than one per piece. no big deal. I think my current record is five falls on one piece in the same placement, while working a crux section.
I really don't know what your gear looks like now, maybe she did wonk the hell out of it. But I'm not really on board with dingus here either... if I loan someone my gear, it's because they're a friend of mine, and I trust them. If they fall on it, that's fine. If they fall on it and mangle it, that's fine. Wouldn't do it for a n00b.
I mean what's next? You're swinging leads and your partner starts winging all over your gear, intentional or not?
(This post was edited by caughtinside on Apr 4, 2007, 8:42 PM)
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 8:35 PM
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caughtinside wrote: she took 2 foot falls on your gear? is it really all that wonked? Can't you just bend it back? And if not, just take her up on her offer to replace the pieces.
1) The gear is, as I said before (man, doesn't anyone read follow-up posts?!?!?), undamaged.
2) All that is entirely beside the point.
caughtinside wrote: It's obviously distressing to you, she probably already thinks you're a total dork about your precious gear, so you might as well get some new stuff, stop making her feel bad, and put all this unpleasantness behind you.
The gear doesn't distress me. Her nonchalant attitude towards borrowed gear is what bothers me.
caughtinside wrote: there's no such think (I think) as proper climber ethics with regard to borrowing gear. It's personal. You loan it to a beginner and you're surprised as to what they do with it?
Yes, I am surprised to some extent, but you're right, I probably shouldn't be. The key to happiness? Low Expectations.
caughtinside wrote: If they don't know how to use it, how will they know how to respect it in the manner you think it deserves?
By asking?
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