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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 8:36 PM
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taino wrote: drfelatio wrote: Many of you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Is it OK to take practice falls on borrowed gear? That's all I wanna know. That is not for us to decide FOR YOU. It's YOUR gear. YOU decide - preferably beforehand - and tell the borrower - again, preferably beforehand. T
You are correct on all points. I made a mistake and now I'm paying the price. I think I've already said that several times.
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 8:37 PM
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reg wrote: yes.....but if you damage then you give cash or new piece with out having to be asked
Ah, "Better to ask forgiveness than permission." Fair enough.
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markc
Apr 4, 2007, 8:43 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: jt512 wrote: Assuming that Josephine has decided to build a rack of her own, why doesn't she start by buying new pieces identical to the one's she fell on. She gives the new pieces to the guy she borrowed the rack from, and receives his pieces in return. Everybody then wins. Josephine gets pieces she would have eventually bought anyway (albeit slightly used), and the original lender gets replacement pieces in better condition than those he lent out. Jay That's what I was thinking originally.
That's nowhere near what I was thinking originally. I had a friend that stuck the hell out of one of my cams once. We hadn't discussed what we'd do if there was lost gear. He volunteered to replace it, and I just asked him to be more careful with the little cams next time. Friendship (and especially a good partnership) is worth more than a few bucks. Were there another stuck cam, then I would have asked for the replacement cost.
iamthewallress wrote: Although I gotta say that when I screw up in some relatively minor or unavoidable way, my inclination to set things right with the person that I've wronged (or who perceives that they were wronged) is inversely proportion to the degree to which the wronged person acts like an anus.
I hear that. I would have finished this with a quick, "I didn't know you were planning on taking practice falls on my gear. It's no big deal, but I wish you would have mentioned it. So how was the class?" I mentioned originally that I might be a bit bothered, but I wouldn't make a big case out of it.
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reg
Apr 4, 2007, 8:45 PM
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i'm getting a headache
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caughtinside
Apr 4, 2007, 8:49 PM
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drfelatio wrote: By asking?
She's a beginner! they don't know what to ask! She probably wasn't initally planning on it, just learned some stuff at the clinic, and decided to practice.
You say the gear was undamaged. Would you have even known about the practice falls if you hadn't been told first?
Anyway, I think you've answered some of your own questions. You think she was nonchalant about caring for your gear. You probably don't want to lend out your gear anymore, unless you know the person well and what kind of climber they are.
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markc
Apr 4, 2007, 8:54 PM
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drfelatio wrote: taino wrote: drfelatio wrote: Many of you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Is it OK to take practice falls on borrowed gear? That's all I wanna know. That is not for us to decide FOR YOU. It's YOUR gear. YOU decide - preferably beforehand - and tell the borrower - again, preferably beforehand. T You are correct on all points. I made a mistake and now I'm paying the price. I think I've already said that several times.
If your gear is fine, what 'price' are you paying? I agreed initially that I might be slightly miffed. I wouldn't have made a big deal about it, and I certainly wouldn't have started a thread about it.
Is it okay to take practice falls on borrowed gear? I'd say yes, so long as the owner doesn't mind or hasn't specified otherwise. As the loaner, it's up to you to set terms. As the borrower, she didn't harm your gear. As such, there is no need to replace it. Maybe you don't like how she used the gear on loan, so you won't loan to her again. Based on both of your reactions, she might not care for how you loan out gear, and may not bother to ask again. Why let something little get in the way of what I assume was friendship?
When I borrow a car, I try to return it with a full tank of gas. It's showing respect and gratitude to the loaner. When people have borrowed my car or truck, I didn't much care if it came back a little lighter in the tank. Just don't suck me dry and not offer up cash. Different strokes, chief.
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 8:55 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Would you loan out gear to someone who was going to aid on it? Would you care if she took practice falls on your quickdraws on bolts? Would you loan it to a friend who you know often pushes it and falls on gear?
1) I don't know enough about aid to address this question.
2) I dunno. Probably not. I know what you're trying to do. "Gear is gear." If I don't care if she falls on my QDs why should I care if she falls on my cams? I don't think it's that simple. I don't equate trad gear with sport gear.
3) Yes I would. I know ahead of time what I'm getting myself into. Now if you're trying to catch me in the, "Well you didn't know what you were getting into when you let her borrow your gear, so why did you let a noob borrow your gear, then?" trap then I have two responses: One, I've already admitted that that was a mistake on my part. Two, I let her borrow my gear more so because of the person she was going out to Red Rocks with. Our mutual friend, Kansas, is someone I consider trustworthy and respectful. She's a person that wants to learn trad and she's a person that I want to learn trad. She, too, is new to trad climbing but I had no reservations allowing her to borrow my gear, nor do I have any reservations now. Seeing as how Kansas and Josie were going to climb at Red Rocks together, allowing Kansas to borrow my gear necessarily allowed Josie to do so as well.
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taino
Apr 4, 2007, 8:59 PM
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drfelatio wrote: taino wrote: drfelatio wrote: Many of you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Is it OK to take practice falls on borrowed gear? That's all I wanna know. That is not for us to decide FOR YOU. It's YOUR gear. YOU decide - preferably beforehand - and tell the borrower - again, preferably beforehand. T You are correct on all points. I made a mistake and now I'm paying the price. I think I've already said that several times.
Yes, you did - and yes, you are. However, you seem to not be listening, because you keep asking what we think you should feel and do. It almost seems as though you have already made up your mind, and are looking for absolution - or, at least, corroboration - for that decision.
T
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shockabuku
Apr 4, 2007, 9:03 PM
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dingus wrote: Its clear some of you don't 'get' the whole tool thing. It is what it is though. Some of you will never get it. DMT
Learning this is part of becoming the master tradesman. Or some of us are just born with that little bit of paranoia. Except it's not really paranoia.
Don't mess with my hammer.
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chearlie
Apr 4, 2007, 9:05 PM
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Look Sally,
You're entirely within your rights to be a grandma about your gear, but don't think anyone who has actually fallen (gasp!) on trad gear won't harass you for this silliness. Maybe it's been too long since I've bought any trad gear, but I don't remember any pieces in my rack coming with a maximum 10 intentional/30 unintentional falls rating on the tag.
This whole issue cracks me up, which leads us back to the main strategy for handling these kinds of problems........
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1567355
(This post was edited by chearlie on Apr 4, 2007, 9:06 PM)
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 9:05 PM
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caughtinside wrote: She's a beginner! they don't know what to ask! She probably wasn't initally planning on it, just learned some stuff at the clinic, and decided to practice.
When you're right, you're right. She didn't know to ask and I didn't think to tell her. THAT IS ALL MY FAULT (for the umpteenth time!).
But don't you think she should have at least had the little devil and angel on her shoulders when she was thinking about taking that fall?
Devil: Just do it! It's not your gear and he never said anything about NOT taking intentional falls on it, so whip away!
Angel: Now, now. There's no need for you to take a practice fall and you don't know what his feelings are regarding this issue. Maybe you should just wait and do this another time when you are more informed.
caughtinside wrote: You say the gear was undamaged. Would you have even known about the practice falls if you hadn't been told first?
No, but what's your point? That it's ok for her to take practice falls so long as she doesn't tell me? Ignorance is bliss?
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 9:12 PM
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taino wrote: Yes, you did - and yes, you are. However, you seem to not be listening, because you keep asking what we think you should feel and do. It almost seems as though you have already made up your mind, and are looking for absolution - or, at least, corroboration - for that decision. T
Actually I've only asked once that I can recall -- in my original post. The second time was merely a reiteration of my question because it seemed as though most people were focusing on the details of the situation and not the bigger picture.
You are right, though. I have made up my mind and I am looking for some support. I feel like Walter from "The Big Lebowski" when he thinks the guy commits a foul during the league game. Don't worry, I won't pull out a gun and threaten you all!
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 9:16 PM
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chearlie wrote: Look Sally, You're entirely within your rights to be a grandma about your gear, but don't think anyone who has actually fallen (gasp!) on trad gear won't harass you for this silliness. Maybe it's been too long since I've bought any trad gear, but I don't remember any pieces in my rack coming with a maximum 10 intentional/30 unintentional falls rating on the tag. This whole issue cracks me up, which leads us back to the main strategy for handling these kinds of problems........ http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1567355
I dunno man, I've got friends who have been climbing for ~10 and ~25 years who say what she did was rude. But if you'd like to ridicule me, that's fine. You and I needn't climb together so what difference does it make?
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drrock
Apr 4, 2007, 9:20 PM
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drrock wrote: drfelatio wrote: But don't you think she should have at least had the little devil and angel on her shoulders when she was thinking about taking that fall? No. As I mentioned in a post above, I wouldn't have given it even a 0.1 second consideration when I was a new leader and genuine noob. I mean, hell, gear is made to catch falls right? Now that I am bit more seasoned, it's not that simple. But I think you need to CTFO about this. Just because she does not see eye to eye with you about the seriousness of her offense doesn't mean you need to go on an internet rampage. Agree to disagree, don't lend your gear out any more, and move on.
This is a good discussion though and I am glad you started it. Turns out that people vary widely in their perspectives of lending out gear. Pretty interesting and not something I would have thought much about. Thanks.
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taino
Apr 4, 2007, 9:24 PM
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drfelatio wrote: But don't you think she should have at least had the little devil and angel on her shoulders when she was thinking about taking that fall?
Nope. You said yourself: new leader. She also admitted, in this thread, that she is of the "it's gear, it's made to fall on" mentality. Why would she assume otherwise? The gear ~is~ supposed to catch a fall. She didn't know that you weren't okay with it doing so when it wasn't you.
Personally, I think she's crazy - I don't like to fall unnecessarily on my gear - but that's neither here nor there.
Someone else posted some good advice, just above...
In reply to: Agree to disagree, don't lend your gear out any more, and move on.
FWIW, I'm sorry that you're experiencing this; it sucks to not trust your gear.
T
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 9:26 PM
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drrock wrote: drfelatio wrote: But don't you think she should have at least had the little devil and angel on her shoulders when she was thinking about taking that fall? No. As I mentioned in a post above, I wouldn't have given it even a 0.1 second consideration when I was a new leader and genuine noob. I mean, hell, gear is made to catch falls right? Now that I am bit more seasoned, it's not that simple. But I think you need to CTFO about this. Just because she does not see eye to eye with you about the seriousness of her offense doesn't mean you need to go on an internet rampage. Agree to disagree, don't lend your gear out any more, and move on.
Thank you for your perspective. I hadn't looked at it like that. I never really put myself in her shoes and thought about what was going through her head. Taking that into account, I can see why she did what she did. But I also think that you see my POV as well.
As for the "internet rampage", lol, well it's an understatement to say that one's tone is difficult to convey in an online forum. But just know that I'm not really angry as much as I am annoyed and confused as to why she would think and act the way she did. However, after looking at it from the perspective you suggested, I can see why. I've tried to tell myself that she didn't know any better. And I've tried to use this thread, less as an internet rant, and more as a tool to better educate myself and her as to what is and is not an acceptable treatment of gear.
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caughtinside
Apr 4, 2007, 9:30 PM
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drfelatio wrote: caughtinside wrote: She's a beginner! they don't know what to ask! She probably wasn't initally planning on it, just learned some stuff at the clinic, and decided to practice. When you're right, you're right. She didn't know to ask and I didn't think to tell her. THAT IS ALL MY FAULT (for the umpteenth time!). But don't you think she should have at least had the little devil and angel on her shoulders when she was thinking about taking that fall? Devil: Just do it! It's not your gear and he never said anything about NOT taking intentional falls on it, so whip away! Angel: Now, now. There's no need for you to take a practice fall and you don't know what his feelings are regarding this issue. Maybe you should just wait and do this another time when you are more informed. caughtinside wrote: You say the gear was undamaged. Would you have even known about the practice falls if you hadn't been told first? No, but what's your point? That it's ok for her to take practice falls so long as she doesn't tell me? Ignorance is bliss?
ok. I'm going to have to put myself in the the mind of the beginner here, so this is pure speculation, but if I've just been told by an instructor that it's ok to take falls, and I've just taken a fall on his tricam, I'm probably not thinking about whether its right or wrong to fall on your gear. I'm probably focused on if the placement is ok, and probably a little scared as well.
I asked the question about aiding, because a lot of people teach aiding (in one form or another) as a way to learn good gear placements. Place a pice, clip in a sling, jump on the sling. Or aid up a crack. Either way, you are weighting every peice of gear, torquing things slightly, stem covers and trigger wires rubbing over edges.
Now, would you have been bummed if she showed up at a trad clinic and was told to take her rack and practice aid placements, weighting every piece? Would you have expected her to not do it because it wasn't her rack?
Regarding quickdraws on bolts, I wouldn't care either! but my bolt end biners are pretty chopped up from hanger grooves from repeated whips.
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drrock
Apr 4, 2007, 9:30 PM
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drfelatio wrote: drrock wrote: drfelatio wrote: But don't you think she should have at least had the little devil and angel on her shoulders when she was thinking about taking that fall? No. As I mentioned in a post above, I wouldn't have given it even a 0.1 second consideration when I was a new leader and genuine noob. I mean, hell, gear is made to catch falls right? Now that I am bit more seasoned, it's not that simple. But I think you need to CTFO about this. Just because she does not see eye to eye with you about the seriousness of her offense doesn't mean you need to go on an internet rampage. Agree to disagree, don't lend your gear out any more, and move on. Thank you for your perspective. I hadn't looked at it like that. I never really put myself in her shoes and thought about what was going through her head. Taking that into account, I can see why she did what she did. But I also think that you see my POV as well. As for the "internet rampage", lol, well it's an understatement to say that one's tone is difficult to convey in an online forum. But just know that I'm not really angry as much as I am annoyed and confused as to why she would think and act the way she did. However, after looking at it from the perspective you suggested, I can see why. I've tried to tell myself that she didn't know any better. And I've tried to use this thread, less as an internet rant, and more as a tool to better educate myself and her as to what is and is not an acceptable treatment of gear.
Yeah sorry dude, I instantly regretted that phrase when I posted it because it's clearly not a rampage-- was wondering how long it would take you to call me on it. Anyway, take it easy. I would lend you my gear, sounds like you would take care of it! Later.
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jt512
Apr 4, 2007, 9:48 PM
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drfelatio wrote: caughtinside wrote: she took 2 foot falls on your gear? is it really all that wonked? Can't you just bend it back? And if not, just take her up on her offer to replace the pieces. 1) The gear is, as I said before (man, doesn't anyone read follow-up posts?!?!?), undamaged. 2) All that is entirely beside the point.
If the gear is undamaged, I would say that you don't have a point.
Jay
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 9:49 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Now, would you have been bummed if she showed up at a trad clinic and was told to take her rack and practice aid placements, weighting every piece? Would you have expected her to not do it because it wasn't her rack?
Let me answer that by saying that I have no problem with her taking the intentional fall during the class. Not that that even matters seeing as how the piece she fell on didn't belong to me (I had originally assumed that it did...whoops!). But even if it were my piece, I still wouldn't have minded because I knew she was taking the class when I lent out my gear. So I wouldn't have found that practice fall to be unreasonable. The part that irks me is when she went out after the class and intentionally took falls on my gear.
But, as I'm starting to learn, a beginner may or may not think that way.
Although, now that I think about it, let me introduce you to one fact that both Josie and I have left out. Our friend Kansas, the one I actually lent the gear to, went out to Red Rocks with Josie, took the same class she did, and was there when Josie took her intentional falls on my gear. Most importantly, she too is a beginning trad leader. Why is that important? Because Kansas had the wherewithal to think about the consequences of those actions. Josie is a very enthusiastic person and loves trying out new things. Perhaps she let her enthusiasm get the better of her without her even knowing it. I guess I can't really fault her for that.
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caughtinside
Apr 4, 2007, 9:53 PM
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sounds like your beef should be with kansas then, eh?
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dingus
Apr 4, 2007, 9:53 PM
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Dude the more you talk about this the less sense you make.
DMT
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drfelatio
Apr 4, 2007, 9:56 PM
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caughtinside wrote: sounds like your beef should be with kansas then, eh?
She and I have already discussed this. But now I'm thinking I'm a dick for bringing her into this conversation.
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