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bigfatrock


Apr 12, 2007, 1:34 PM
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Why Trad?
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Hey guys, last weekend I had my first "trad" experience. I didn't lead but cleaned on a route and saw how gear was placed. I also recently saw a video on Masters of Stone of a guy taking a nasty whipper and 4 or 5 pieces of pro pop out on his fall, luckily he was high enough up the route that he had a piece to catch him. I have seen a few other videos similar to this as well.

Does gear pop out that often? How easy is it to get it wrong? It seems fairly easy if experience climbers have numerous pieces coming out on a fall. Does it happen that often? If so why risk it? I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. Just kind of curious as to what drives you to it?


jgailor


Apr 12, 2007, 1:36 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Here's the easy answer:

Not all routes are bolted!


alx


Apr 12, 2007, 1:41 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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..the same reason we climb instead of taking the stairs. We like to.


stevej


Apr 12, 2007, 1:44 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Some people have been climbing for 20-odd years and are still struggling on 5.10a. They will usually describe themselves as "trad" climbers and belittle sport climbers saying they have either no balls, or lack the understanding of the true spirit of climbing. Can't you see how attractive that is? Groveling up dusty slabby cracks for decades is what real climbers do.


vegastradguy


Apr 12, 2007, 1:46 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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bigfatrock wrote:
I also recently saw a video on Masters of Stone of a guy taking a nasty whipper and 4 or 5 pieces of pro pop out on his fall, luckily he was high enough up the route that he had a piece to catch him. I have seen a few other videos similar to this as well.

that was staged, and the pro didnt pop, the slings had been cut most of the way through and blew- the gear held.

In reply to:
Does gear pop out that often?

no.

In reply to:
How easy is it to get it wrong?

like anything else, time and rate are needed to become proficient.

In reply to:
It seems fairly easy if experience climbers have numerous pieces coming out on a fall. Does it happen that often?

multiple failure of trad pro is very rare- the only one i can think of in recent memory is that whip that guy took on Ruby's Cafe at the creek, and he was putting in cams too small for the crack. operator error.

In reply to:
I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose.

really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro.

a properly placed cam or nut in good rock that is slung appropriately (this prevents gear from walking or coming out) is as good as any bolt will ever be.


kman


Apr 12, 2007, 2:00 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
If so why risk it? I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose

Why climb at all? If you want it to be completely safe then stay in the gym. You have obviously not yet run across old school manky bolts muahahaha


deschamps1000


Apr 12, 2007, 2:09 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Bigfatrock-

In responce to your questions...

Well-placed gear will always hold. It does take a few years to learn how to place good gear. That's why you really don't want to push the grades until you feel confident about your gear.

Trad is appealing to people for a number of reasons.
1. The techniques used when climbing cracks are different than sport-climbing techniques. I personally enjoy the movements and techniques in crack climbing.
2. A climbing route does not need to be "pre-equipped" when climbing trad. You can walk up to a rock with nothing on it, climb it, and leave without leaving anything behind. It does not alter the rock.
3. Trad climbing tends to be more mental and involved because of the need to place gear. This can add to the "depth" of a climbing experience.
4. All of the big mountain climbs are trad climbs. Thus, learning how to trad climb opens a lot of doors in the alping climbing arena.

Hope this helps clarify things.


knieveltech


Apr 12, 2007, 2:11 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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I've never climbed trad but after skimming a few chapters in Freedom of the Hills and spending a month or so reading posts on here I feel like I can offer an expert opinion here. Simply put people climb trad because it's hard to haul a 12-pack up 5.xx, and sport crags are usually crowded, which means people trying to scam your beer. Crazy


ihategrigris


Apr 12, 2007, 2:17 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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bigfatrock wrote:
Does gear pop out that often?
Every time if placed incorrectly.

bigfatrock wrote:
How easy is it to get it wrong?
As easy as it is to hit a truck head on on the highway.

bigfatrock wrote:
It seems fairly easy if experience climbers have numerous pieces coming out on a fall. Does it happen that often?

No

bigfatrock wrote:
If so why risk it? I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. Just kind of curious as to what drives you to it?

If you have to ask, you won't comprehend the answer anyway.


kman


Apr 12, 2007, 2:21 PM
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Re: [ihategrigris] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
If you have to ask, you won't comprehend the answer anyway

That would make for a kick ass signature LMAO Pirate


tradmanclimbs


Apr 12, 2007, 2:23 PM
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Re: [knieveltech] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
I've never climbed trad but after skimming a few chapters in Freedom of the Hills and spending a month or so reading posts on here I feel like I can offer an expert opinion here. Simply put people climb trad because it's hard to haul a 12-pack up 5.xx, and sport crags are usually crowded, which means people trying to scam your beer. Crazy
SlySlySly Finally!! You guys figured it outSly Actually real climbers do it all. For me personaly its about getting up the cliffs/towers etc. If I see a cool tower and there is a sport climb to the top I will happily clip those bolts. If its gear to get up there then lets have at it. If it's cold and there is a knarly drip of ice coming down the side of that sucker we are really going to have funCool


leapinlizard


Apr 12, 2007, 2:25 PM
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Re: [ihategrigris] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Why trad? Traditional climbing is true to life. Most sport routes are placed by someone hanging on rappel. Trad climbing is a way up the wall, where as sport climbing is exactly that a sport, just like football and car racing. Trad climbing is for the pure of heart, those that strive to adventure there way up the rock, not just follow the map. Don't get me wrong I think sport climbing is fun, in fact I do it alot, but I use sport climbing as a tool to make me a better climber, one who may venture into the unknown and up rocks on mountains never seen before, where there are no bolts and where there are no guidebooks. Just my two cents.


bigfatrock


Apr 12, 2007, 2:50 PM
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Re: [leapinlizard] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Wow, didn't really even expect to get this many replies. Thanks to all those who answered. I had no idea the Masters of Stone fall was staged. I don't recall it saying that. In my narrow mind of sport climbing I had forgotten trad was the original form of climbing. Had actually talked about it with some friends, but it never really registered.

I have to admit I got pretty excited about getting to clean a route though. It was an interesting learning experience. Because of my skill level at the moment I don't think I would feel that comfortable leading trad yet, plus I have not had much experience climbing cracks. I flashed a 5.8 crack for the first time on the trip on TR. I struggled on 5.7 cracks the last time I went out. My sense of adventure might eventually drive me there, but as of now I haven't taken enough whippers to be super confident on the rock.


Partner oldsalt


Apr 12, 2007, 3:07 PM
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Re: [leapinlizard] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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From a recent convert to climbing on gear (Trad).

I am attracted to it for several reasons...

1. I want to be able to climb any place I see that looks fun and within my limits.
2. I like the pure concept of leaving no trace.
3. I like the mental chess aspect of reading rock, analyzing my rack, and then protecting myself.
4. I am older, slower, increasingly arthritic, and I will probably never lead sport above 5.9 if I get that far. I find great satisfaction from lower grades of trad. A 5.6 gear climb is more soul satisfying to me than a 5.6 sport climb.

It's all in what floats your boat. If I was 40 years younger and running around with my hair on fire, I might be pushing grades instead of cams. 40 years ago, I was riding 10-15' waves on the North Shore. The mental challenge was designing and building the board that I was riding.

It's all good.


hibby11


Apr 12, 2007, 3:12 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Two reasons: Adventure & Creativity


mandrake


Apr 12, 2007, 3:32 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
In reply to:
I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose.

really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro.

a properly placed cam or nut in good rock that is slung appropriately (this prevents gear from walking or coming out) is as good as any bolt will ever be.

Plus the other thing about bolted lines is that no one other than the FA has a choice of where the bolts go! How many sport climbs have you approached the second (or third!) bolt and thought, "if I blow this clip I'm gonna deck fer sure." On a nice crack you can (mostly) choose how yer gonna protect it, so that the gear's close enough to keep you off the deck and more spaced out when all you'll hit is air.

Of course, you have to focus on the gear. It don't place itself. Screw that up, and you're done. Get good gear and you're fine, though. And this is on top of the actual climbing moves, so that's why most people don't trad climb as hard as they sport.


Partner angry


Apr 12, 2007, 3:52 PM
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Re: [stevej] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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stevej wrote:
Some people have been climbing for 20-odd years and are still struggling on 5.10a. They will usually describe themselves as "trad" climbers and belittle sport climbers saying they have either no balls, or lack the understanding of the true spirit of climbing. Can't you see how attractive that is? Groveling up dusty slabby cracks for decades is what real climbers do.

Ok, so I've been climbing almost 10 years and I'm struggling on 5.13a trad. Everything else you said describes me pretty well though. Especially the part about grovelling up dusty cracks, god damn I love a good grovel.


ja1484


Apr 12, 2007, 4:21 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:

bigfatrock wrote:
I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose.

really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro.


No kidding. Anyone who thinks bolts are the end-all be-all of protection has never had to hand-tighten a thread head at a hanging belay.

Kids these days...


xjlx


Apr 12, 2007, 4:24 PM
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Re: [angry] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Had my first trad experiences this weekend. Seconded a couple of "iowa multipitch" climbs. Also did my first lead on some unknown 5.3.


kane_schutzman


Apr 12, 2007, 4:29 PM
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Re: [xjlx] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Buy 100 cams-Look like a badass

Buy 100 draws-Look like an idiot with 100 draws.


dan2see


Apr 12, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Re: [xjlx] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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xjlx wrote:
Had my first trad experiences this weekend. Seconded a couple of "iowa multipitch" climbs. Also did my first lead on some unknown 5.3.

OK xjlx -- I know that Iowa is flatter that Saskatchewan! Laugh
So now tell us, what is an "Iowa multipitch"? Shocked

Umm, is "unknown" an Iowa word for "off-route?" Tongue


grippedclimer


Apr 12, 2007, 4:45 PM
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Re: Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Dude, Trad sucks. Way too Dangerous man. Stick to the boulerrs and such man. I had the same problem when I started climbing and then swithced to builering one story houses. Bolts are way bomber.


(This post was edited by grippedclimer on Apr 12, 2007, 4:45 PM)


notapplicable


Apr 12, 2007, 5:42 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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Because its a beautiful, beautiful thing.


timm


Apr 12, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
In reply to:
I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose.

really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro.

This is a great point vegastradguy.

To further underscore this, I once played a great game with one of my AMGA instructors. He had a bag of bolts. Some were new and some were bolts that he had cleaned off routes doing bolt maintenance. He would show the hanger and the head of the bolt and keep the length of the bolt hidden in his hand. We had to guess the type of bolt, it's length, it's condition, and ultimately whether we would trust it. With the exception of the new Fixe and Petzl bolts we faired badly guessing the ultimate quality and strength of the bolt.

The most stunning example of blindly trusting bolts by sight alone was a newer Metolious hanger with what looked like the head of a 3/8" Rawl 5-piece bolt. Hidden in his hand was not the expected Rawl 5-piece but but a 3/8" hardware store machine bolt that was about an 1" long placed as a rivet thru the hanger. Supposedly, he found two of these as the sole belay anchor on some El Cap route when he was doing anchor replacement. The damn thing looked just like something you see at almost any sport climbing area in the US but an 1" long rivet isn't going to hold more than a few hundred pounds at best. How it ever held a couple of climbers plus the force of hauling, etc. was beyond our comprehension.

This forever changed how I view and trust bolts.


dingus


Apr 12, 2007, 7:03 PM
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Re: [stevej] Why Trad? [In reply to]
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stevej wrote:
Some people have been climbing for 20-odd years and are still struggling on 5.10a. They will usually describe themselves as "trad" climbers and belittle sport climbers saying they have either no balls, or lack the understanding of the true spirit of climbing. Can't you see how attractive that is? Groveling up dusty slabby cracks for decades is what real climbers do.

Nice troll. You left out sexual orientation ya fag.

DMT

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