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carbonrx8
Apr 12, 2007, 3:50 AM
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ccourtney_99 wrote: Im a pretty big guy (270lbs) Well, I can claim to be anything but a n00b myself, but it sounds like you could be a pretty good trad climber. You drink beer?
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jt512
Apr 12, 2007, 4:19 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: aidasr wrote: nuts_bolts wrote: aidasr wrote: Someone may have already written this, but its my favorite forearmstrengthening excersice. Take a full paint can..or a cinder block..or something that you can lift..pretty easily. Tie some cord to it..and tie the other end to a bar..or dowel or..something like that. i tape it on too so the cord doesnt spin on the dowel. Now..grab it with both hands and start rolling it until the weight is all the way up...and lower it down and keep rolling it up the other way, and lower it...and roll it up again. Simple and effective. Funny... I've never come across any climbing movement quite like that... It just builds up forearm strength. It sounds wierd....but it works Not only does it work, but it works well. Helps build up wrist strength and prevent injury. Its a common work out for our climbing team. The earth was flat was a common belief, too. Jay
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lambone
Apr 12, 2007, 5:41 AM
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Jay, why be such a hater (besides the fact that you are from SoCal)? If all our training theories are wrong, and you are all knowing, then please enlighten us. So far you have offered nothing to this discussion. The roll up bar exercize is great. It is especially good for people who climb alot. If you hold the bar/dowel palms down and roll it up, it works the extensor muscles (think the top of your foearm). This is crucial for people who mostly only climb which can overdevelop your flexor mucscles causing an imbalance which can lead to bad tendonitis. There are lots of grip trainers like squeeze balls and stuff that can help develop fingerstrength as well. You want low resistance/high reps at first. My favorite was "Power Putty" but I haven't seen that stuff for sale since the 90's.
(This post was edited by lambone on Apr 12, 2007, 5:48 AM)
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jt512
Apr 12, 2007, 2:16 PM
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lambone wrote: Jay, why be such a hater (besides the fact that you are from SoCal)? If all our training theories are wrong, and you are all knowing, then please enlighten us. Our? Who is our? Most of the training literature I've read says that your forearm training exercises are too non-specific to be beneficial for climbing.
In reply to: So far you have offered nothing to this discussion. There is nothing I can add to what trainers like fluxus have written in the literature and in these forums. It's hard for me to believe that any coach would not already be familiar with that material, but you seem to be completely unaware of it. Try doing a search. Jay
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sidepull
Apr 12, 2007, 3:47 PM
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jt512 wrote: There is nothing I can add to what trainers like fluxus have written in the literature and in these forums. It's hard for me to believe that any coach would not already be familiar with that material, but you seem to be completely unaware of it. Try doing a search. Jay amen.
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lambone
Apr 12, 2007, 5:59 PM
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I have read much of fluxus stuff. I don't read the training forum on this site because there are way too many n00bs here who don't know what they are talking about. Instead usualy I read the Coaches forum on USAclimbing.org. Where Fluxus posts by his real name and holds conversations regarding training techniques mostly pertaining to kids, I'd give you the link, but only registered coaches are allowed in the forum so you are out of luck. Where did doug say that grip strength excersisers don't work? Sure maybe they don't help much for people who climb 5.12 allready, but for a n00b just starting why wouldn't it help? Here is a post on usaclimbing from Joe Czerwinski, a respected coach from Arizona who has been climbing since the 80s, climbs hard and knows his shit. These are people I know and respect, who don't hide behind Avatars and dis on other peoples opinions for fun:
In reply to: I met this old lady whom was on the (I am sure my terminology is wrong) the governing board of individuals who determined the standard of arm and hand PT. She looked like a typical grandma. 55-60yrs, heavyset woman, grey hair, glasses and always had chocolate chip cookies for me. In a nutshell, she knew her PT better than anyone around. She did all sorts of hand strength tests, so she could monitor how much more hand strength I developed in a 8 week period. After a lot of initial conversation about how my injury occured, where it hurt, when it hurt, how it felt when it was hurt and how and when my injuries would take place. She concluded I had tendonitis in my fingers that was caused from a muscle imbalance. I know, climbers with a muscle imbalance.....never! She explained how your flexor tendon is wrapped in spots by your pully tendons (called A2, A3, A4). In short, my flexor tendon would swell, and could not glide easily through the pullys....in turn creating a block on either side of the pully. When I applied enough power from climbing to foce the flexor to glide through the pully, I damaged/ruptured the pully and I was out for 3-6 months. Here is the jist of my PT. I started with a hot wax dip, called parafin, every time for 10-15 minutes.....this was comfortably hot. After a hand massage she started doing various exercises to develop my extensors. My exercieses consisted of this. 1. reverse wrist curls. I started with 2lbs. At first, I was like 2lbs? Is this a joke? No joke. Arm on a table, wrist and hand in free space. Start all the way down, and move to the upward position slowly and hold for 7-10 seconds, and then go down to your starting position slowly (5 seconds to reach starting position). If you are not already doing wrist curls, I guarantee this will make your forearms burn! So each wrist curl is taking just under 20 seconds total. Do 7-10 of these. I am currently doing 5-6 reps with 20 lbs. 2. find a rubbermaid bin (at least 1'x1'x6'') and fill with rice. (sand works too, but is a lot dirtier). Put your fingers into the rice with all your fingertips touching covering up to the top of your hand. Open your hand slowly untill your fingers are fully extended. Each one should last about 7-10 seconds. Do this 7-10 times. For added resistance, add a couple handfulls of pennies into the rice and mix it together. 3. With 2 regular brown rubber bands maybe 1.5''in diameter. Put them around your main knuckles of your four fingers (not your fingertips), Open your fingers slowly and hold open for 7-10 seconds. Then close your hand, but take 5 seconds to close it. Do 7-10 reps on each hand. Once again, the top of your forearm will be on fire after a while. Be very deliberate in going slowly. You may think you can do it with the rubber bands at you tips cause you climb hard. Well, look at it this way. You are a beginner at this, and you need to work up to doing it harder. "must learn stand, before lean fly...nature rule Daneil-son...not mine" Mr. Myagi in Karate Kid l. In order to work the opposite of what you just did, you will need two packages of silly putty. Combine them to make one big piece. With your hand in the same position (without rubber bands on them), put the putty in between your index and third finger, then close your fingers together. Make sure you keep your hand flat and straight. You will find you can exert more force by folding your hand a bit. Limit this as much as possible. Do this between all of your fingers. You should spend 7-10 seconds squeezing the putty each time. Do this inbetween each finger three times, each hand. 4. Back to the rubber bands. Put them on your fingers the same as the other exercise, but this time include your thumb. Do this on a table or flat surface. When you open your hand, it should look like you are reaching for a water glass. Learning this on a table is necessary for proper technique......you need to keep you arm and hand straight in line. Hold the open position for 7-10 seconds, and do this 7-10 times. This develops your opposing pinch. After time, you will notice your thumb muclse increasing is size. My PT lady never told this to me, but I figured it out on my own and I think it makes sense. It is important to hold your hand in the open position for 7-10 seconds becasue that is how we climb. When you grab a pinch or crimp, you grab and hold, then let go. Rarely are you grabbing a hold and letting go quickly, it is usually for 4-6 seconds. I notice a lot of people working with rubber bands and they are opening and closing over and over very quickly. As climbers, it makes sense to develop your extensors this way becasue of how we climb. There are a slew of other exercises I have, but they are too difficult to write out. PM me and we can talk. I agree, the best training for climbing is climbing. But if you have no apparatus for climbing like the orginal poster, then it can hurt to pick up some weights and try to do some general conditioning.
(This post was edited by lambone on Apr 12, 2007, 6:10 PM)
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carabiner96
Apr 12, 2007, 8:19 PM
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jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: aidasr wrote: nuts_bolts wrote: aidasr wrote: Someone may have already written this, but its my favorite forearmstrengthening excersice. Take a full paint can..or a cinder block..or something that you can lift..pretty easily. Tie some cord to it..and tie the other end to a bar..or dowel or..something like that. i tape it on too so the cord doesnt spin on the dowel. Now..grab it with both hands and start rolling it until the weight is all the way up...and lower it down and keep rolling it up the other way, and lower it...and roll it up again. Simple and effective. Funny... I've never come across any climbing movement quite like that... It just builds up forearm strength. It sounds wierd....but it works Not only does it work, but it works well. Helps build up wrist strength and prevent injury. Its a common work out for our climbing team. The earth was flat was a common belief, too. Jay Wow, yet another convincing argument from Jay.
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jt512
Apr 12, 2007, 9:59 PM
Post #33 of 74
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lambone wrote: Where did doug say that grip strength excersisers don't work? Why don't you ask him.
In reply to: Sure maybe they don't help much for people who climb 5.12 allready, but for a n00b just starting why wouldn't it help? This is such old news, I can't believe I have to repeat it at all, much less to someone who "coaches climbers for a living": grip strength is finger-position specific and is isometric in climbing. Rolling up a weight suspended from a bar is not isometric, and in fact doesn't even require a firm grip on the bar, so this exercise would have little effect on climbing grip strength. The hand squeeze apparatuses - spring clamps, putty, etc. - are neither isometric nor grip-position specific. Maybe I ought to coach. Jay
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jt512
Apr 12, 2007, 10:07 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: aidasr wrote: nuts_bolts wrote: aidasr wrote: Someone may have already written this, but its my favorite forearmstrengthening excersice. Take a full paint can..or a cinder block..or something that you can lift..pretty easily. Tie some cord to it..and tie the other end to a bar..or dowel or..something like that. i tape it on too so the cord doesnt spin on the dowel. Now..grab it with both hands and start rolling it until the weight is all the way up...and lower it down and keep rolling it up the other way, and lower it...and roll it up again. Simple and effective. Funny... I've never come across any climbing movement quite like that... It just builds up forearm strength. It sounds wierd....but it works Not only does it work, but it works well. Helps build up wrist strength and prevent injury. Its a common work out for our climbing team. The earth was flat was a common belief, too. Jay Wow, yet another convincing argument from Jay. I'm sorry you didn't understand my point. I'll make it explicitly: the fact that the exercise is common does not imply that it is effective. Furthermore, both you and lambone have expressed the vagueness fallacy: it "works," it "works well," etc. What do you mean by that? Can you explain in terms of quantifiable measures of climbing performance how effective this exercise is? If not, than you have no good reason to believe that this exercise improves climbing performance. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 12, 2007, 10:08 PM)
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lambone
Apr 12, 2007, 10:37 PM
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Sure maybe you should be a climbing coach, but the most important thing about coaching is being encoruaging and supportive, kids don't respond well to assholes. I didn't really say it works, or it works well. I don't do that stuff myself, or encourage my team to train in ways other then climbing drills on the wall. The guy who started this thread is a 270 pounder who has been indoor climbing once. He apparently lives four hours from the nearest climbing. He asked for some basic stuff he could do to reduce the pump factor. My suggestion for him to really train was to build a home wall with lots of jugs and run laps on it. I said that regular cardio excersize and general fitness training would also HELP, as well as forearm exersize. Maybe this stuff doesn't matter to a guy buring on 5.12 routes three days a week....but for a total beginner I don't see why it wouldn't help. Maybe your recomendation would be to oder some pizza, pop a beer and watch some football on the couch?
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 12:05 AM
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lambone wrote: I didn't really say it works, or it works well... ...for a total beginner I don't see why it wouldn't help. It won't work, but it will help. Got it. Jay
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lambone
Apr 13, 2007, 12:36 AM
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whatever dude, just keep fishin'...
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crankingclimber
Apr 13, 2007, 12:44 AM
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jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: aidasr wrote: nuts_bolts wrote: aidasr wrote: Someone may have already written this, but its my favorite forearmstrengthening excersice. Take a full paint can..or a cinder block..or something that you can lift..pretty easily. Tie some cord to it..and tie the other end to a bar..or dowel or..something like that. i tape it on too so the cord doesnt spin on the dowel. Now..grab it with both hands and start rolling it until the weight is all the way up...and lower it down and keep rolling it up the other way, and lower it...and roll it up again. Simple and effective. Funny... I've never come across any climbing movement quite like that... It just builds up forearm strength. It sounds wierd....but it works Not only does it work, but it works well. Helps build up wrist strength and prevent injury. Its a common work out for our climbing team. The earth was flat was a common belief, too. Jay Wow, yet another convincing argument from Jay. I'm sorry you didn't understand my point. I'll make it explicitly: the fact that the exercise is common does not imply that it is effective. Furthermore, both you and lambone have expressed the vagueness fallacy: it "works," it "works well," etc. What do you mean by that? Can you explain in terms of quantifiable measures of climbing performance how effective this exercise is? If not, than you have no good reason to believe that this exercise improves climbing performance. Jay Jay, for some, this is just a source for discussing training techniques, and we don't want it to delve into the exact number of reps, with what weight, for how long, enabled us to climb X amount better. That would be asinine on a whole bunch of levels - you would need a control, you would need to know that it wasn't some other part of your training, you would need more than just one experience etc. Arguing that because we don't have 'quantifiable' evidence that this workout is no good is asinine. I don't have quantifiable evidence that when I eat healthy, instead of junkfood, I'm healthier, but it's the truth. I don't have quantifiable evidence that when I train with the forearm rolling deal, I climb better, but I do. I get a little stronger, but mainly get more endurance, can recover faster, and can shake out better - it pumps your arms like nothing else, and if you train with it, you can train to better manage pump. So, to sum up, it works, and works well. If you want more numbers than this, then piss off somewhere else to get them, and in the meantime, let others read this who aren't looking for your asinine level of 'quantifiable' detail. Will
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 1:02 AM
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crankingclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: aidasr wrote: nuts_bolts wrote: aidasr wrote: Someone may have already written this, but its my favorite forearmstrengthening excersice. Take a full paint can..or a cinder block..or something that you can lift..pretty easily. Tie some cord to it..and tie the other end to a bar..or dowel or..something like that. i tape it on too so the cord doesnt spin on the dowel. Now..grab it with both hands and start rolling it until the weight is all the way up...and lower it down and keep rolling it up the other way, and lower it...and roll it up again. Simple and effective. Funny... I've never come across any climbing movement quite like that... It just builds up forearm strength. It sounds wierd....but it works Not only does it work, but it works well. Helps build up wrist strength and prevent injury. Its a common work out for our climbing team. The earth was flat was a common belief, too. Jay Wow, yet another convincing argument from Jay. I'm sorry you didn't understand my point. I'll make it explicitly: the fact that the exercise is common does not imply that it is effective. Furthermore, both you and lambone have expressed the vagueness fallacy: it "works," it "works well," etc. What do you mean by that? Can you explain in terms of quantifiable measures of climbing performance how effective this exercise is? If not, than you have no good reason to believe that this exercise improves climbing performance. Jay Jay, for some, this is just a source for discussing training techniques, and we don't want it to delve into the exact number of reps, with what weight, for how long, enabled us to climb X amount better. That would be asinine on a whole bunch of levels - you would need a control, you would need to know that it wasn't some other part of your training, you would need more than just one experience etc. Arguing that because we don't have 'quantifiable' evidence that this workout is no good is asinine. I don't have quantifiable evidence that when I eat healthy, instead of junkfood, I'm healthier, but it's the truth. I don't have quantifiable evidence that when I train with the forearm rolling deal, I climb better, but I do. I get a little stronger, but mainly get more endurance, can recover faster, and can shake out better - it pumps your arms like nothing else, and if you train with it, you can train to better manage pump. So, to sum up, it works, and works well. If you want more numbers than this, then piss off somewhere else to get them, and in the meantime, let others read this who aren't looking for your asinine level of 'quantifiable' detail. Will Go fuck yourself, Will. Jay
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crankingclimber
Apr 13, 2007, 1:16 AM
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Classic!
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carabiner96
Apr 13, 2007, 1:19 AM
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crankingclimber wrote: Classic! You'll get used to that. Jay likes to spread his love wherever he goes...like herpes.
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crankingclimber
Apr 13, 2007, 1:23 AM
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Yeah, I've entered into pissing matches with jay a couple of times before - good entertainment to avoid studying. Still, it seems like he folded on his hopeless argument and resorted to ad hominem attacks pretty early this time, doesn't it? Oh well, I guess I get more studying done. Will
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 1:25 AM
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crankingclimber wrote: Classic! Yeah, classic exasperation with the idiots on this site. Best training for climbing, according to n00b.com: swimming, slacklining, running, pull-ups, focusing on the hands instead of the feet, playing chess, winding up a bar with a suspended weight. What have I forgotten? This isn't a "Technique and Training" forum. Not one post in 100 has any validity. The forum should be renamed "Misconceptions about Technique and Training." Jay
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carabiner96
Apr 13, 2007, 1:26 AM
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jt512 wrote: crankingclimber wrote: Classic! Yeah, classic exasperation with the idiots on this site. Best training for climbing, according to n00b.com: swimming, slacklining, running, pull-ups, focusing on the hands instead of the feet, playing chess, winding up a bar with a suspended weight. What have I forgotten? This isn't a "Technique and Training" forum. Not one post in 100 has any validity. The forum should be renamed "Misconceptions about Technique and Training." Jay Suprise! Bitching and moaning doesn't work!!!
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 1:33 AM
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crankingclimber wrote: Yeah, I've entered into pissing matches with jay a couple of times before - good entertainment to avoid studying. Still, it seems like he folded on his hopeless argument and resorted to ad hominem attacks pretty early this time, doesn't it? Oh well, I guess I get more studying done. Will No, Will, I just don't have the patience to explain almost self-evident concepts when I'm outnumbered by morons by 100s to 1. Jay
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carabiner96
Apr 13, 2007, 1:50 AM
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jt512 wrote: crankingclimber wrote: Yeah, I've entered into pissing matches with jay a couple of times before - good entertainment to avoid studying. Still, it seems like he folded on his hopeless argument and resorted to ad hominem attacks pretty early this time, doesn't it? Oh well, I guess I get more studying done. Will No, Will, I just don't have the patience to explain almost self-evident concepts when I'm outnumbered by morons by 100s to 1. Jay Wow, I'm so humbled. I'm just gonna quit climbing now, because it's obvious that I'll never reach your godlike status of know all end all.
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lambone
Apr 13, 2007, 2:26 AM
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what do you know...he kept on fishin'! don't get trolled by this assface fellas. Jay, honestly if you can't stand all the miss information being spread in this thread then why not just leave? Or as I said before, enlighten us on what the best non-climbing method of forearm strengthening is. The reason you haven't yet, because you get your kicks from being a dick...
(This post was edited by lambone on Apr 13, 2007, 2:29 AM)
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 2:29 AM
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lambone wrote: what do you know...he kept on fishin'! don't get trolled by this assface fellas. "Assface." That was mature. As to trolling, I'm not. I'm serious about the general intelligence level on this site. Jay
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carabiner96
Apr 13, 2007, 2:34 AM
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jt512 wrote: "Assface." That was mature. Jay and this is?
jt512 wrote: Go fuck yourself, Will. Jay And that was?
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 2:35 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: jt512 wrote: "Assface." That was mature. Jay and this is? jt512 wrote: Go fuck yourself, Will. Jay And that was? Exasperation, like I said. Maybe a more mature person could have handled being called "asinine" three times in one post better. Jay
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