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deadhorse
Apr 19, 2007, 7:44 AM
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I never thought to clip in short on a tricam (aiding) until I read in a review by a climbing site that the second pocket was for clipping short. I was solo aiding yesterday, and I was trying to advance onto a small stopper, and I was clipped in short on a tricam. The flake blew and I took a short static fall onto my #1 tri-cam. Real short fall- like 1 foot maximum. Didnt realize at the time but it blew out the pocket. Is this a design feature like in a daisy or was this just plain bad?? Anybody else ever clip short with these on aid, or have this happen?
I'm not an aid climber, just trying to know enough to get out of tight trad spots, so please forgive if this was a stupid mistake.
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phang_nga
Apr 19, 2007, 8:55 AM
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It seems like the full force of the fall would be directly against the threads instead of the strap. I'm not really surprised that it failed.
I hope you didn't get hurt.
In retrospect, would there have been any way of clipping in in the loop (normal) and still being able to reach your next placement?
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reg
Apr 19, 2007, 12:09 PM
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not an aid climber either (wanna try it) plus i (edit: don't) think that pocket was created for that purpose. heck it's only a couple inches - maybe that all you need when aiding but i do agree with pang nga - the load would have hit the long strand at the threads and surely ripped then - hummm...not for that porpuse i'd say
(This post was edited by reg on Apr 19, 2007, 2:00 PM)
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j_ung
Apr 19, 2007, 1:18 PM
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deadhorse wrote: I never thought to clip in short on a tricam (aiding) until I read in a review by a climbing site that the second pocket was for clipping short. I was solo aiding yesterday, and I was trying to advance onto a small stopper, and I was clipped in short on a tricam. The flake blew and I took a short static fall onto my #1 tri-cam. Real short fall- like 1 foot maximum. Didnt realize at the time but it blew out the pocket. Is this a design feature like in a daisy or was this just plain bad?? Anybody else ever clip short with these on aid, or have this happen? [IMG]http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/miketilley/DSC_0135-1.jpg[/IMG] I'm not an aid climber, just trying to know enough to get out of tight trad spots, so please forgive if this was a stupid mistake.
I have no idea whether or not the upper "pocket" is intended for such a thing, but if so, it's certainly not adequate for holding any type of fall, especially static. This is the same reason why you shouldn't rely solely on daisy-chain loops and why static falls onto daisy chains are so dangerous. There's no dynamic resistance to absorb force.
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microbarn
Apr 19, 2007, 1:52 PM
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j_ung wrote: deadhorse wrote: I never thought to clip in short on a tricam (aiding) until I read in a review by a climbing site that the second pocket was for clipping short. I was solo aiding yesterday, and I was trying to advance onto a small stopper, and I was clipped in short on a tricam. The flake blew and I took a short static fall onto my #1 tri-cam. Real short fall- like 1 foot maximum. Didnt realize at the time but it blew out the pocket. Is this a design feature like in a daisy or was this just plain bad?? Anybody else ever clip short with these on aid, or have this happen? [IMG]http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/miketilley/DSC_0135-1.jpg[/IMG] I'm not an aid climber, just trying to know enough to get out of tight trad spots, so please forgive if this was a stupid mistake. I have no idea whether or not the upper "pocket" is intended for such a thing, but if so, it's certainly not adequate for holding any type of fall, especially static. This is the same reason why you shouldn't rely solely on daisy-chain loops and why static falls onto daisy chains are so dangerous. There's no dynamic resistance to absorb force.
no dynamic absorption unless you count on the threads of each pocket tearing.....
 it SOUNDS like a bunch of mini-screamers
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8flood8
Apr 19, 2007, 1:57 PM
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it sounds like you got lucky.
ripping through bar-tacks sounds pretty freaking sketchy to me.
if you want to clip off short tie a knot in the leash maybe...
or just use a carabiner instead of a draw to clip with...
thanks for the experiment, i'll never have to learn that lesson
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reg
Apr 19, 2007, 2:02 PM
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8flood8 wrote: ripping through bar-tacks sounds pretty freaking sketchy to me......thanks for the experiment, i'll never have to learn that lesson
oh yeah!
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dbrayack
Apr 19, 2007, 2:14 PM
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I'm glad your not dead.....
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deadhorse
Apr 19, 2007, 4:17 PM
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Perhaps the author of the review where i first got this idea is mistaken, as I haven't ever seen it mentioned elsewhere, although it did seem reputable.
To answer whether I could have done anything else- no. I was clipped with a draw or with a sling, I would have stayed in the lower pocket if at all possible. I was clipped, directly, with an oval between my belay loop and the tricam's upper pocket. While it was certainly bad news, it seems as though that pocket blowing could have been better than it not blowing. If I took that static fall onto the main clip in point perhaps the extra force having nowhere else to go would rip out a marginal placement. (although this was not one), and if I had been clipped to the main clip in my static fall would have been even bigger, so I dont know what the proper maneuver there would have been.
I, too, am glad i'm not dead- but this was a low level stuff, not all that much danger involved either way.
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dbrayack
Apr 19, 2007, 4:34 PM
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That's a nice photo :)
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sweetchuck
Apr 19, 2007, 4:41 PM
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Here's to Tricam screamers!
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tallnik
Apr 19, 2007, 4:41 PM
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Perhaps the second pocket of the piece is designed to hold body weight while you aid off it, but for 'pro' purposes you'd want to remain clipped into the bottom loop.
Seems like a question for CAMP though, not a bunch of us amateurs on the net
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petsfed
Apr 19, 2007, 4:51 PM
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deadhorse wrote: I was clipped, directly, with an oval between my belay loop and the tricam's upper pocket.
So how were you attached to the stopper that blew? The rule of thumb while aiding is that you don't stay daisyied into a lower piece once you're clipped to a higher piece. You should've had the rope attached to the tricam at the normal clip in point (at which point it wouldn't have been an issue) and your aiders to the higher clip point, but the daisy not really attached at all.
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deadhorse
Apr 19, 2007, 5:06 PM
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petsfed wrote: deadhorse wrote: I was clipped, directly, with an oval between my belay loop and the tricam's upper pocket. So how were you attached to the stopper that blew? The rule of thumb while aiding is that you don't stay daisyied into a lower piece once you're clipped to a higher piece. You should've had the rope attached to the tricam at the normal clip in point (at which point it wouldn't have been an issue) and your aiders to the higher clip point, but the daisy not really attached at all.
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jderekforrester
Apr 19, 2007, 5:10 PM
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I have had the same thing happen to me while aiding. They are definately not designed to hold weight in that direction. Mine started blowing under body weight.
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sjmelan
Apr 19, 2007, 5:26 PM
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Quick reply. Back when tri-cams were very new, maybe mid to late 80's, I tried same thing on a new #1, It ripped immediately, dropping me to the end of the sling. I think the sewing that creates the loop closer to the nut is just to stiffen the sling. Not even body weight strength. It was a long time ago, I don't know about the current manufacturer's intent/specs on this matter. Keep having fun.
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wanderlustmd
Apr 19, 2007, 5:51 PM
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deadhorse wrote: petsfed wrote: deadhorse wrote: I was clipped, directly, with an oval between my belay loop and the tricam's upper pocket. So how were you attached to the stopper that blew? The rule of thumb while aiding is that you don't stay daisyied into a lower piece once you're clipped to a higher piece. You should've had the rope attached to the tricam at the normal clip in point (at which point it wouldn't have been an issue) and your aiders to the higher clip point, but the daisy not really attached at all. Like I said, it was solo, so there was no rope at all. I was standing on a sling from the nut above the tricam, trying to get to the point where i could get a draw on the nut to my loop. No daisy chain or aiders involved, only slings. Sorry if thats a disgrace, but like I said, I am no aid climber. So when you go up, even onto a sketchy piece you unclip your last peice first?? That seems counter intuitive to me, but I guess on rope you would still be protected.
Not sure how high you were, but why not self belay with a clove hitch and back up tie offs?
When I learned aid, my teacher said for sketchy placements to pretest the top piece by applying weight to the daisy to avoid a potential static fall on the low daisy by just bounce testing. Then you slowly weight the top piece and bounce test as normal. When you go to move full weight onto the top piece, I was told to keep a hand on the low piece for stability and to be reasonably ready to move backwards if the top piece blows. Transition to the new piece slowly (don't look at it) After the transition is complete, clip in rope, unclip daisy/aiders and restart the process.
On easy aid, daisy falls are unlikely since a piece blowing is unlikely. On hard aid, you have to watch it; there might be a better way. I actually was trying to find a post buried somewhere that described avoiding daisy falls completely, since there is that tiny window between clipping the rope and unclipping the low daisy that the top piece could blow, but can't find it....
(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Apr 19, 2007, 5:53 PM)
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stymingersfink
Apr 20, 2007, 2:40 AM
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it seems to me his main problem was trying to aid without ladders, or at least slings! he describes trying to get high enough to clip himself directly to the sketchy nut that blew... with a draw? how are you going to test the piece before you weight it if all you're using is a draw?
you might get away with soloing in such a manner when you are close to the ground trying to learn (like less than a few feet off the ground), but you're gonna be suprised when you actually hit the ground and I won't be suprised if when you do you seriously tweek your ankles.
for god's sake, at a minimum use some slings, better yet use some 1" tubular webbing tied into ladders, though better still would be to purchase a set for your own convenience.
have someone belay for you, or practice "french free" on an easy-ish crack climb, anything but soloing sans rope or ladders of some kind.
at least you've learned WHY one wishes to avaid static falls, don't ever forget it.
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ja1484
Apr 20, 2007, 2:59 AM
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8flood8 wrote: it sounds like you got lucky. ripping through bar-tacks sounds pretty freaking sketchy to me.
Thing is, tricams don't have what appear to be your typical tacks like on most other soft gear - rather this sort of X-in-a-rectangle deal. Probably plenty strong, but still seems odd...
http://www.backcountry.com/....html?swatch=CMP0006
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dr_feelgood
Apr 20, 2007, 3:45 AM
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I took a static fall on a daisy clipped to the 'haul loop' on my aider... Blew 3 bar tacks on that one, and cracked the trigger bar on the TCU that was the placement(it was on a crystal). Was able to yard up on daisy, unclip, and step down to ground...
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wanderlustmd
Apr 20, 2007, 2:06 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: it seems to me his main problem was trying to aid without ladders, or at least slings! he describes trying to get high enough to clip himself directly to the sketchy nut that blew... with a draw? how are you going to test the piece before you weight it if all you're using is a draw?
Yeah, even if you are learning aid procedures to apply in emergency trad situations, you might as well learn them "the right way," so you can improvise as necessary when you need to. Better off buying/making daisies and aiders and using a belay of some sort.
Sty, I actually think you were the one who made a reference to hard aid testing procedures to avoid daisy falls. Can't find the post, it was a while back. Do you use a better variation of the process I described above?
(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Apr 20, 2007, 2:06 PM)
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deadhorse
Apr 20, 2007, 5:23 PM
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wanderlustmd wrote: stymingersfink wrote: it seems to me his main problem was trying to aid without ladders, or at least slings! he describes trying to get high enough to clip himself directly to the sketchy nut that blew... with a draw? how are you going to test the piece before you weight it if all you're using is a draw? Yeah, even if you are learning aid procedures to apply in emergency trad situations, you might as well learn them "the right way," so you can improvise as necessary when you need to. Better off buying/making daisies and aiders and using a belay of some sort. Sty, I actually think you were the one who made a reference to hard aid testing procedures to avoid daisy falls. Can't find the post, it was a while back. Do you use a better variation of the process I described above?
I think you misunderstood my post, I WAS using slings, but not aiders. I had slings at foot height and short ones at clip in height. I was testing the pieces by starting to stand on them, before going 'off' my last piece. The way I was getting up bit by bit was starting with as high of placements as i could reach, using the slings to stand in, and progressively closing the distance btw the piece and i by using shorter sling/doubling over/going to QD/going direct (in that order) just to answer some of those how'd you find yourself in this position questions.
Maybe it breaks at 2kn like a daisy pocket? Or perhaps they are not even tested. I looked through the literature they come with and saw nothing about that pocket, so it is likely that I, and the source I got the idea from have been under the wrong impression.
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wanderlustmd
Apr 20, 2007, 5:33 PM
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One of the above mosts mentions it, and I seem to remember reading somewhere that the lateral addition stitching is indeed for stiffening the nylon for placement purposes. I don't think it's to provide alternate clip in points.
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petsfed
Apr 20, 2007, 6:09 PM
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deadhorse wrote: I think you misunderstood my post, I WAS using slings, but not aiders. I had slings at foot height and short ones at clip in height. I was testing the pieces by starting to stand on them, before going 'off' my last piece.
The better option is to use a daisy chain to the high piece, completely disconnect anything but the rope and maybe some aiders to stand in on the low piece, get low and bounce. If you prefer, clip an aider to the high piece and stomp on it, but either way, you do not want to be connected to a piece you've already moved past with a daisy. That the stitching on a tricam will support body weight is interesting and useful information. However, you're gonna need a new tricam and some real aid equipment (not to mention a belayer of some kind) to get any use out of it.
I recognize what you're doing, and its useful, but if you cannot safely aid through a section, its time to retreat. Pieces should not blow if you have to resort to aiding a section on a free climb. Get what I'm saying?
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berkly
Apr 20, 2007, 6:24 PM
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deadhorse wrote: petsfed wrote: deadhorse wrote: I was clipped, directly, with an oval between my belay loop and the tricam's upper pocket. So how were you attached to the stopper that blew? The rule of thumb while aiding is that you don't stay daisyied into a lower piece once you're clipped to a higher piece. You should've had the rope attached to the tricam at the normal clip in point (at which point it wouldn't have been an issue) and your aiders to the higher clip point, but the daisy not really attached at all. Like I said, it was solo, so there was no rope at all. I was standing on a sling from the nut above the tricam, trying to get to the point where i could get a draw on the nut to my loop. No daisy chain or aiders involved, only slings. Sorry if thats a disgrace, but like I said, I am no aid climber. So when you go up, even onto a sketchy piece you unclip your last peice first?? That seems counter intuitive to me, but I guess on rope you would still be protected.
Let me get this straight, you were solo aiding without a rope? Just slings attached from your harness to the protection?
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