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badsanta
May 8, 2007, 8:18 PM
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Anyone have info on her acciddent?
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dynoho
May 8, 2007, 8:38 PM
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I just received an E-mail saying she is in surgery for her back at the moment. Please, any details would be appreciated.
Donna is a very sweet person. Her upbeat enthusiasm can not be matched and she is always willing to help, teach or coach those just starting out. My thoughts and prayers go out to her for a speedy and complete recovery.
Get well soon D.
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murf
May 9, 2007, 7:18 PM
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toejam wrote: 30-35 ft ground fall on lead. Head and back injuries, no helmet. 9.8 mm rope, atc, 2nd degree burns on belayer's hands.
Jesus that sounds horrible. I hope she recovers 100%.
Sounds like the belayer tried to stop a fall, did equipment fail?
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toejam
May 9, 2007, 7:37 PM
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murf wrote: Sounds like the belayer tried to stop a fall, did equipment fail?
It was a sport route, and I saw no evidence of defective gear. Given the length of the fall, the bad landing zone, and her condition, I think that her fall was slowed considerably by the attempt to control it.
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badsanta
May 10, 2007, 8:40 PM
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In reply to: Who was Donna's belayer? |
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toejam
May 10, 2007, 10:36 PM
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Not going to go there. The guy was completely shattered and I see no reason to add to his misery. As I understand it Donna sometimes took relatively inexperienced climbers on outings. This is something we all do, but I always try to bring an experienced belayer, and insist that we belay each other or at least provide a backup belay. I've made the mistake of jumping on an easy route with a new belayer and planning not to fall, but I don't think I will anymore.
I climbed the route afterwards to clean it and also think about the accident, and assumed that she fell from a crux section just under the 4th bolt. It occurs to me now that she may have fallen as low as under the third bolt after reaching up to clip. That would perhaps be more in line with her injuries, and might also offer some insight into the belay failure. I feel most vulnerable with an atc when the ropes are parallel coming from the device to rapidly take up or give slack, and have had my hand sucked against the device by a surprise fall at this moment, impeding the lock-off and making arrest more difficult. It is one of the reasons I prefer gri-gris (but they have their own drawbacks for inexperienced belayers). The thin rope may also have contributed to the difficulty of the catch.
A helmet would likely have lessened the severity of the injuries. Like many climbers I sometimes carry a helmet but only don it when the threat of head injury seems more likely (gear leads, possible rockfall, awkward landings, etc). This was a reminder that accidents can occur when you least expect it, and another line of defense is rarely a bad idea.
The above is mostly speculation, and should not be taken as an accurate depiction of events or criticism of the climbers involved, nor am I an expert in such matters. I have however learned much from reading the analysis and speculation of the heavy hitters that do frequent this forum, and felt obligated to post the lessons I took from this.
(This post was edited by toejam on May 10, 2007, 10:43 PM)
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badsanta
May 12, 2007, 12:38 AM
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Donna is the one in misery. Unless there is something to cover up and hide I don't see how posting his name will shatter him further? This is a matter of public factual record-ie the search and rescue/first responders/paramedics have it. There is a safety obligation to the climbing community to let us make an informed decision if we want to climb with and be belayed by her belayer. To do otherwise is to put all climbers at risk. Are you willing to be belayed by him? Then why should we? In any event the person should come forward and explain exactly what happened, and take part in training to ensure that this never happens again. Belaying is a fundemental mandatory skill-those that don't have it shouldn't be doing it.
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jt512
May 12, 2007, 3:58 AM
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badsanta wrote: Donna is the one in misery. Unless there is something to cover up and hide I don't see how posting his name will shatter him further? This is a matter of public factual record-ie the search and rescue/first responders/paramedics have it. There is a safety obligation to the climbing community to let us make an informed decision if we want to climb with and be belayed by her belayer. To do otherwise is to put all climbers at risk. Are you willing to be belayed by him?
Oh, come on. This is a little silly. One inadequately trained n00b got dropped by another inadequately trained n00b. If you don't want this to happen to you, then get some expert instruction in belaying, instead of relying on the limited knowledge of your local gym employee, and learn how to train and evaluate the competency of your potential partners.
In reply to: In any event the person should come forward and explain exactly what happened...
Here's what happened: the belayer didn't lock off he belay device.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 12, 2007, 4:03 AM)
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reno
May 12, 2007, 4:13 AM
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badsanta wrote: This is a matter of public factual record-ie the search and rescue/first responders/paramedics have it.
Unlikely: I'd never ask the name of the belayer if I treated/transported an injured climber. Can't imagine any other paramedic would, either. Perhaps the SAR folks, but also unlikely.
And even if they did, it wouldn't be public record.
Medical records are private.
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jt512
May 12, 2007, 4:18 AM
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murf wrote: toejam wrote: 30-35 ft ground fall on lead. Head and back injuries, no helmet. 9.8 mm rope, atc, 2nd degree burns on belayer's hands. Jesus that sounds horrible. I hope she recovers 100%. Sounds like the belayer tried to stop a fall, did equipment fail?
Burns on the belayer's hands imply that the belayer did not properly lock of the rope. With a standard ATC and a 9.8-mm rope, the rope really has to be locked off low (ie, the angle between the strands has to be as large as possible).
I used a standard ATC a few months ago for the first time with a skinny rope and was shocked by how poorly the ATC performed. I normally give a dynamic belay by braking with the ropes about 90 degrees apart and lowering the brake hand as necessary to gradually slow the decent. But with a skinny rope, I found I had to lock off with the greatest angle possible in order to maintain control of the rope. I'm done with standard ATCs, and if ever forced to trad climb again, will use a higher-friction device, such as an ATC-XP.
Jay
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dynoho
May 12, 2007, 5:17 AM
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badsanta wrote: Donna is the one in misery. Unless there is something to cover up and hide I don't see how posting his name will shatter him further? This is a matter of public factual record-ie the search and rescue/first responders/paramedics have it. There is a safety obligation to the climbing community to let us make an informed decision if we want to climb with and be belayed by her belayer. To do otherwise is to put all climbers at risk. Are you willing to be belayed by him? Then why should we? In any event the person should come forward and explain exactly what happened, and take part in training to ensure that this never happens again. Belaying is a fundemental mandatory skill-those that don't have it shouldn't be doing it.
I fully expect that all parties involved will eventually post their analysis of what occurred. I am certain that neither Donna nor belayer will be climbing any time soon. Donna has not even been released from intensive care yet; I believe her belay has driven several hours each day to see her. The story will come out, but more importantly, one of our climbing community is down. Please show your support for a genuinely unique climber.
For those who don't know Donna, she has only been a member here for about a year but "lurked" much longer. She is an active member/moderator of numerous clubs in her area. Almost every week she is organizing adventures for the meek and hardy. She routinely attends Climb Smart in JT, RRR, etc. She is kind to a fault. Reciprocation of the support she has given would be appreciated.
-Jeff
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climbsomething
May 12, 2007, 5:51 AM
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reno wrote: badsanta wrote: This is a matter of public factual record-ie the search and rescue/first responders/paramedics have it. Unlikely: I'd never ask the name of the belayer if I treated/transported an injured climber. Can't imagine any other paramedic would, either. Perhaps the SAR folks, but also unlikely. And even if they did, it wouldn't be public record. Medical records are private.
But ah, it's all academic. toejam was gracious in not revealing the belayer's name. toejam isn't obligated to dispense "public records." That's the sheriff's office's job. So if "badsanta" thinks he's onto something and truly believes the belayer's name is part of public record, he can contact the sheriff's office and see if they responded to a climbing accident at X location on Y date at Z time and find out for himself. Then he can invite Majid over for a slumber party and they can talk about it in between pillow fights!
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majid_sabet
May 12, 2007, 7:33 AM
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reno wrote: badsanta wrote: This is a matter of public factual record-ie the search and rescue/first responders/paramedics have it. Unlikely: I'd never ask the name of the belayer if I treated/transported an injured climber. Can't imagine any other paramedic would, either. Perhaps the SAR folks, but also unlikely. And even if they did, it wouldn't be public record. Medical records are private.
many SAR leaders will ask and may do full interview to find out what went wrong, they may not share it with every body but I know they will ask.
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thedejongs
May 12, 2007, 10:00 AM
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"jt512 wrote: Oh, come on. This is a little silly. One inadequately trained n00b got dropped by another inadequately trained n00b.
Love the assumption, here, that both the climber and belayer were "inadequately trained n00bs." Nothing like a good rush to judgment, particularly right on the heels of an accident in which a fellow climber is seriously hurt. Great use of both compassion and logic.
badsanta wrote: Donna is the one in misery. Unless there is something to cover up and hide I don't see how posting his name will shatter him further? This is a matter of public factual record-ie the search and rescue/first responders/paramedics have it. There is a safety obligation to the climbing community to let us make an informed decision if we want to climb with and be belayed by her belayer. To do otherwise is to put all climbers at risk. Are you willing to be belayed by him?
Love the self-righteousness of this one-- basically, "I won't climb with anyone who has ever made a mistake before." Nice. How about if he who is without sin casts the first stone, here. The insistence that the name of the belayer is public record and the demand that the name be released is a nice touch, as well. If it's public record and badsanta wants it so badly, why doesn't he go look it up and add it to his own "I won't climb with these people because they made a mistake list" instead of pestering people here who are simply trying to convey some information concerning one of our fellow climbers.
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overlord
May 12, 2007, 10:07 AM
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first of all... best wishes to donna and for her speedy recovery
second... assuming that because you made a mistake once, youre no longer safe is not exactly true. trust me, this particular belayer will not repeat hes/her mistake. nothing teaches proper belaying like decking the leader, but thankfull we dont have many such classes. dont get me wrong, im not saying that its right that she was dropped, just assuming that the belayer wont be safe after this accident is wrong.
and, for the record, i have always kept my leaders off the deck (and out of harms way). /knock on wood/
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socalclimber
May 12, 2007, 3:00 PM
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I have to agree with Jay. sounds like two noobs got themselves into trouble. My first clue was the diameter of the rope and the ATC. It's a fine setup in expereinced hands, but you have to be extra attentive. One question, was the rope dry treated? This can lead to real trouble in noob hands. Simple truth of the matter, noobs don't belay me without a backup belayer. PERIOD. If you're leading, and you have a noob belaying, you might as well be soloing.
After climbing for 15 year, working/running technial SAR for 5 years, I've seen the aftermath of kind of thing too many times.
I hope she has speedy and full recovery and that her belayer gets over this. Sometimes they don't.
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jdouble
May 12, 2007, 4:46 PM
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Get better Donna!!!!!!!
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naronaro
May 14, 2007, 4:14 AM
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Thanks for your suppor everyone! Donna has been able to reach many people and share this sport of climbing. Through her enthusiasm, this sport has continued to grow.
I saw Donna earlier today she was in good spirit (for those of you that know Donna, that's pretty much all the time). Donna has full use of her arms and legs, with therapy and time (she is hoping less then 6 months, she will be out at the craggs again. Please continue to show your support, if you don't know Donna or would like to leave her a note please click the link below:
http://rockclimbing.meetup.com/63/messages/boards/view/viewthread?thread=3045361
I have made contact and spoke with the belayer (name not need be mention and there is no cover up here) The belayer feels very bad.
There are a lot opinions, assumtions, and theories. Please keep in focus the important issue. DONNA is doing better.
In regards to the comment about finding the identity of the belayer, and cast him out. Pretty unthoughtful. Though I agree with you that the climbing community should no and learn from this incident, but naming someone can cast them out.
If anyone would want to speak out this it should be up to Donna.
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toejam
May 14, 2007, 7:35 AM
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The fall was from above the bolt as I first guessed. I didn't specifically check if the rope was dry-treated or the brand, but that is an excellent point. Some of the Beal/Black Diamond Goldendry ropes I have seen are incredibly slick when brand new, and can be a real surprise on first use. This has resulted in at least two close calls that I know of, and a friend now runs them several times through a belay device to break them in before use.
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socalclimber
May 14, 2007, 11:58 AM
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As I stated before, I've worked SAR and seen the aftermath. Leave the poor guy (belayer) alone. One thing people don't seem to understand is that there are usually 2 victims in an accident like this. You have a mangled climber, and a emotionaly trashed partner. These can be life changing events for both parties involved. He too has a long road ahead of him.
It's good to hear that Donna is slowly getting better!
Be safe out there!
Robert
(This post was edited by socalclimber on May 14, 2007, 12:04 PM)
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badsanta
May 14, 2007, 8:45 PM
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Thedejongs, correct, I WON'T climb with anyone that has almost killed someone. I encourage you to do so to show me the error of my judgements. They can practice their belay skills on YOU. Using an ATC or a 'thin' rope is no excuse for dropping a leader. I've held plenty of leader falls with both. Noob has nothing to do with it, a new belayer can hold leader falls if they are competent.
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badsanta
May 14, 2007, 8:56 PM
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If the poor emotionally trashed belayer (The real victim of this story-doubtless needing years of therapy and waking in the middle of the night in a cold sweat-I'm crying for him right now) wants to make ammends he can pay her medical bills and visit her family and friends. Dry treated ropes don't cause accidents, that's an BS excuse. The bend in the rope creating friction through the device is what stops the fall-not the slipperiness or lack of in the rope.
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alpinismo_flujo
May 14, 2007, 9:43 PM
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...ah...doesn't this sport suck sometimes? So many potential hazards; bad belays, slick ropes, noncompassionate climbers...
I doubt the Belayer X will be back any time soon, so you're all safe for now 
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socalclimber
May 14, 2007, 10:15 PM
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Nobody was making any excuses. You just made an assumption. What an asshole.
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