|
vertical_reality
Sep 26, 2002, 3:56 PM
Post #1 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
I'm going to try and place protection this weekend (on toperope) but I have a really basic question: When placing a peice of gear in a vertical crack, lets use an SLCD as the pro, and the cliber falls on that peice the cam will already be facing downward with the fall right? So what happens when the crack is horizontal? If it is fallen on will the stem of the cam buckle, or break or something since it cannot rotate with the fall?
Does anyone have a clue what I am trying to say?
Mike
Edited because everyone kept commenting on the vertical cam rotating thing, I was only trying to relay how in a vertical position there is really nothing to cause lateral forces on the stem, only longitudinal. Just wanted to clarify.
[ This Message was edited by: vertical_reality on 2002-09-26 09:27 ]
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Sep 26, 2002, 4:05 PM
Post #2 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
I know what you're saying. A couple comments:
First off, in a vertical crack, orient the cam so that it's ALREADY pointed downward and WILL NOT rotate when/if you fall on it.
In a horizontal there are a couple guidelines for placing cams. If you have rigid stemmed cams you need to place them deep enough (be careful that you will be able to get them out) that the rigid stem will not be loaded over the edge which would break it. Or you need to tie off the stem at the bottom lip of the crack. With flexible stemmed cams (almost every cam made these days with the exception of WC rigid friends) you can be a little more haphazard with depth of placement as the stems will bend in a fall. If the placement isn't super solid this could have unfavorable effects, and in any case can tweak your cam (though your cam will function correctly in the fall). So either don't fall or try to place them deep enough / carefully enough / in positions where they won't get tweaked.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Sep 26, 2002, 4:14 PM
Post #3 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
I've fallen on horizontally-placed cams before. It really kinks the stem, but not necessarilly permanent damaging.
I've heard (never used) that tricams are some of the best pro for horizontal cracks.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
Sep 26, 2002, 4:16 PM
Post #4 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
Josh,
What did you mean by, "Or you need to tie off the stem at the bottom lip of the crack." Do you mean that if the stem extends out past the edge of the crack that rather then clip into the sling on the cam itself, to perhaps use a girth hitch at the point where the stem just passes the edge?
|
|
|
|
|
basecamp_junkie
Sep 26, 2002, 4:17 PM
Post #5 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 43
|
Look at the book Mountaineering the Freedom on the Hills page 227.... great illustration of what you are thinking... I would consider a tri-cam or something similar to that in a horizontal crack anyways before I went straight for the cams.... Just my opinion. If you don't have that book, it shows how you can sling a cam to take the stress away from the shaft, if it is not a flexible shaft.. Maybe someone can post a picture on this? I can't.... I can barely email.
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Sep 26, 2002, 4:19 PM
Post #6 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
Do Not rely on the cams to rotate into the direction of pull. Some times you can get lucky but if you try to wiggle a cam up and down in a vertical crack the lobes will not always seat correctly. In a fall, imagine applying a couple thousand pounds and having the cam rotate at the same time - it won't always work. In other words, put the cam in and orient it in the direction of pull and put a QD or runner on it to keep it from rotating. Otherwise, you are asking it to fail.
casey
|
|
|
|
|
jasona
Sep 26, 2002, 4:22 PM
Post #7 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 207
|
Vertical, yes that is what he is trying to say. tie off on the rigid stem as close to the rock as possible. This prevents too much stress from being exerted on the stem. Think of it as the rigid stem being a lever and the bottom edge of the crack the fulcrum. tons more stress will be exerted if the pull is on the end of the lever/stem vs. if the pull is being exerted on the spot closest to the crack/fulcrum. hope this makes sense
|
|
|
|
|
rocknpowda
Sep 26, 2002, 4:29 PM
Post #8 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2002
Posts: 418
|
As mentioned above, the only cams that you have to worry about breaking the cam are the Wild Country rigid Friends. Others will simply bend (often permanently) if you fall on them and still hold the fall. If you have WC rigid Friends, you can tie a loop of spectra cord through the hole in the stem closest to the cams and clip into this on horizontal placements.
|
|
|
|
|
madscientist
Sep 26, 2002, 4:33 PM
Post #9 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2002
Posts: 159
|
I have alot of experience placing cams in horizontal cracks. In solid and clean rock, there is no problems, but if the rock is dirty, or not really solid, then tricams work alot better. For any type of rock, I prefer tricams in horizontal placements, but sometimes I have found that they are the only kind of protections that will work.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Sep 26, 2002, 4:33 PM
Post #10 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
Aliens are the absoulte best cams for horizontal placements.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
Sep 26, 2002, 4:34 PM
Post #11 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
Jason,
Yes I understand, the moment produced at the point where the stem is at the crack edge is dependent on the distance from the point of contact. M = F * d. The farther you are away, the greater the moment.
If I can't use my engineering degree for work, I'll use it for climbing!!!
Mike
|
|
|
|
|
bradhill
Sep 26, 2002, 4:47 PM
Post #12 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 486
|
Yes, good SLCD placements are pretty multidirectional, but falling on one placed horizontally may very well jack up your unit. Placing them deep enough that only the sling is running over the edge is a big help in avoiding this and making things more secure.
I'll repeat what everybody else has said because it's just the right answer: use a tricam in a shallow horizontal placement.
|
|
|
|
|
winkwinklambonini
Sep 26, 2002, 8:49 PM
Post #13 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 1579
|
I might add that when traversing via a horizontal crack, setting proper direction of pull is tricky. The cam will always get pulled between the angles of the leader and belayer ends of the rope. Imagine the difference between a leader fall and a follower fall: the cam gets yarded toward the belayer where ever he/she is.
This is where single-stem cams like the aliens are best, because they walk less. Recently by friend lead a traverse and both of us ended up hanging on my #1Metolious. It's a good thing they are durable because the stems got hammered on as the cam walked itself into a thinning crack.
If there is a definate crux on a traverse, set the d.o.p. for a leader before it, and for the follower after it.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Sep 26, 2002, 9:04 PM
Post #14 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
I absolutely love tricams and they are great in horizontal placements, however, when traversing a fall can result in some lateral force on your piece. Single stem SLCD's work better in those situations. An alien is the best because of it's flexability and effectiveness in shallow placements.
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Sep 26, 2002, 9:32 PM
Post #15 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
The rigid-stemmed Friends have a hole close to the axle. You tie a piece of 6 or 7mm cord there, and use that to clip into when the cam is in a horizontal crack. Make sure the cord is below the stem when you place the cam.
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Sep 26, 2002, 9:41 PM
Post #16 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
I have a set of ridge friends (new style ones), now if I happened to place one horizontally, in a pinch, without the spectra tie off.
What is going to break - I don't think the stem is going to bend or break - they are heavy duty, is it going to throw leverage/pressure back on the cams/axis and break something here?
It seems I heard the older style friends required this more than new style?
Any truth to this??
|
|
|
|
|
cedk
Sep 26, 2002, 9:59 PM
Post #17 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2001
Posts: 516
|
timpanogos: I think the stem will in fact break. Don't underestimate the power you can generate on a lead fall. I don't see why you'd ever not have the gunks tie-off available though. Stop by the gear shop on your way home and put the spectra loop on tonight then you'll never have to worry about it again.
[ This Message was edited by: cedk on 2002-09-26 15:00 ]
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Sep 26, 2002, 10:01 PM
Post #18 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
From a mechanical standpoint, the cam should fail at the point of contact of the edge of the crack. There are significantly more forces involved here to break the stem (aluminum fails by cracking not bending). The cams themselves will be forced upward but it shouldn't break the axle or the cams and will probably lock the unit in place better. This is only a guess. I have not tested it so take my words as a bunch of BS.
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Sep 26, 2002, 10:29 PM
Post #19 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
Well Cedk, when your right, your right -
Anybody done this on their forged friends? What is your experience with permanently tied spectra cord in the forward hole? tripple fishermans? - how long is best for final loop? Racking/tangle/trigger problems with the extra loop?
I agree with the tricam preference, but I currently only carry pink and red - like verticals, horizontal cracks come in all sizes.
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Sep 26, 2002, 10:56 PM
Post #20 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
Don't use spectra for the cord in the hole, or replace it every one or two years. It has lousy sunlight resistance. Make the cord fairly short, so it reaches about the end of the stem.
You can also place the larger Friends far back in the crack, so that the regular loop hangs over the edge. That will also prevent bending of the stem. The problem is getting your hand into the crack to get them out later.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Sep 26, 2002, 11:00 PM
Post #21 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
Consider 7 mm nylon cord. It is plenty strong and will serve you better in the long run. It should be a permanent feature of your cams, use a double or triple fisherman's not. It should be as long as possible, but still short enough so that it takes the load when clipped (you should also be cipped into the main runner when using it).
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Sep 26, 2002, 11:08 PM
Post #22 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
In this case I'd go with a hex, but depending on the crack that may not be an option. Now you'll pardon me, I need to go kill a mastadon and eat it.
|
|
|
|
|
danl
Sep 26, 2002, 11:28 PM
Post #23 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 288
|
OK Coming from the Gunks I consider my self well versed in horizontal cracks.
1) Rigid stemmed friends MUST be tied off for placement in horizontals. They will break, this is not prophecy this is fact. a peice of tech cord or spectra works well. Find the hole at the front of your cam that will accept the cord. make the loop long enough so that it will be even with the sewn sling. when racking clip both. When you place the piece in a horizontal unclip the sewn runner and clip into the tied loop. A double or triple fishermans will suffice.
2. Cams are fine in horizontals. Aliens can sustain a good fall and the center cable recovers fine. I took a 20+ foot fall onto a blue alien. It is still straight. Metolius cams seem to bend and stay bent.
3. Placing nuts in horizontals can be tricky work.
|
|
|
|
|
cedk
Sep 30, 2002, 1:55 PM
Post #24 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2001
Posts: 516
|
20 feet on the blue Alien!! Better you than me. That's scary man. Nice to know the little things will work though.
|
|
|
|
|
jamison
Oct 2, 2002, 8:12 PM
Post #25 of 26
(14627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 23, 2002
Posts: 106
|
I don't think anyone has mentioned Hexes yet. Hexes are camming units to you know (if positioned correctly) all pieces of pro need to be loved.
I love Tricams also, but I think a hex is considerably less expensive for the same size crack.
Jamison
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
