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a.a.


May 23, 2007, 8:10 AM
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Gri-gri backup.
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When I solo aid with a gri-gri I generally tie a backup knot and clip it into my harness with a locker. The problem I have with this is that when the knot starts to get within 20-30 feet of the gri-gri that side is light enough that a bunch of slack can sometimes slip through without my realizing it. I took a fall this past weekend which ended up being quite a bit farther than I was expecting because of slack that had slipped through. So, is there a trick to setting this up better or do I just need to keep a better eye on things and retie the knot sooner?


simpsongunn


May 23, 2007, 8:37 AM
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Re: [a.a.] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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I wish I knew a trick. I was using the modified gri-gri system (chest harness, drilled plate) early in May, took a fall, and ended up much further down than expected. I hadn't thought about the short loop thing causing the rope to lighten up and stop feeding.

This bothered me enough that I ditched the gri-gri the next day and used a clove hitch instead. I liked how "clean" it felt to be free of the gri-gri, though I missed the easy switch to rap mode.


lambone


May 23, 2007, 10:35 AM
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Re: [simpsongunn] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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a thicker rope helps.


Partner holdplease2


May 24, 2007, 1:01 PM
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Re: [lambone] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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Hey -

The reason the rope "self feeds" is that the weight of the rope becomes enough to overcome the friction of the device. Based on how little of the rope it takes to make this happen in your system, lambone is right, get a thicker rope.

Plus, if you are jugging lines to clean, its better to have a thicker rope, or one with a thicker sheath. The rope can take a real beating.

I climb with a Mammut Supersafe, a 10.2. It takes about 80 feet of rope out in the lead for it to self feed with a 10-20 foot loop.

When this begins to happen on a lead, I take a rubber band, and girth hitch or tie it to the rope and clip this to a piece of pro.

This holds the weight of the rope up and prevents the self feed, but doesn't remove the dynamic line from the system.

Hope this helps!

-Kate.


stymingersfink


May 24, 2007, 5:01 PM
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Re: [holdplease2] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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holdplease2 wrote:
When this begins to happen on a lead, I take a rubber band, and girth hitch or tie it to the rope and clip this to a piece of pro.
I'd only add two things:

clip the rope to the piece too, of course!

bring plenty of extra rubber bands!


skidawg


May 24, 2007, 5:10 PM
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Re: [simpsongunn] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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How do you use a clove hitch for this?....I have a wild country ropeman ascender which I backup with a prussic, and have considered modifying my grigri, but am curious how the clove hitch works for this application.


giza


May 24, 2007, 10:06 PM
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Re: [skidawg] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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skidawg wrote:
How do you use a clove hitch for this?....I have a wild country ropeman ascender which I backup with a prussic, and have considered modifying my grigri, but am curious how the clove hitch works for this application.

I think the person who switched to clove hitch mode is referring to soloing by simply being clipped into a clove hitch on the lead rope and another clove hitch (or other knot) further down the lead line as a backup. This is a system in itself that doesn't require a device like a grigri or ropeman.


Partner holdplease2


May 24, 2007, 10:37 PM
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Re: [giza] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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Hey all, just an opinion her3e,

Please don't clove hitch your rope to pieces of gear on your leads. If you decide you need to fix your rope to a piece on lead, use a butterfly knot. (I don't fix to pieces on lead unless trying to protect myself from an edge when I clean)

If the biner with the clove hitch gets smashed up into the rock when you fall, and you are tied to the biner with a clove hitch, the biner/rock can cut your lead line, as the rope cannot stay whole if the knot is cut.

If you use a butterfly knot, the rope can be cut within the loop of the knot where the biner lives and the rope is still connected to the anchor.

An eight on a bight could "roll" resulting in the cut segment of rope no longer being isolated.

Clove hitches are good when you can keep an eye on them, like your own tie in to the anchor or as your self belay knot. They are not good when they are part of your safety system and could be cut by rock, biners, other sharp things.

One death has resulted from this type of application of the clove hitch in Yosemite, according to Werner B. with Yosemite SAR.

-Kate.


healyje


May 24, 2007, 11:22 PM
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Re: [holdplease2] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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I've switched from a tab-removed grigri to an Edelrid Eddy for my [free] roped-soloing. It threads backwards from a grigri and doesn't have a spring. So long as both sides of the rope are directed down it runs; a pull of any significance trips the cam. I like it much better than a grigri though I've had to drop down to a Metolius 9.8 from my Supersafe. Need to get out with my new Supersafe to see how that works, the old one was getting pretty stiff.


wanderlustmd


May 25, 2007, 5:19 AM
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Re: [holdplease2] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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holdplease2 wrote:
Hey -

The reason the rope "self feeds" is that the weight of the rope becomes enough to overcome the friction of the device.
-Kate.

Have you/other people had this problem with the Wren Soloist, or just the Gri-Gri?


alpineH


May 25, 2007, 11:16 PM
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Re: [wanderlustmd] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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Great question!!!! just like holdplease2
said.The best system that I have been using to prevent the "self feeding thing" is to use a long prusik attached to pieces along the way to hold the rope up, about four per pitch or so will treat you fine.

This quote may make more sense...

"A prusik loop can be used to bear part of the weight of the lead line while self belaying is an option. Using long prusik loop in this way spares the leader from having to do so and prevents rope from inadvertently accumulating a loose bit between climber and belay station. This is loose rope will add that much distance to a fall (should one occur). To reduce the likelihood of dislodging an anchor by the upward pull of a fall, the rope should be pulled taut. Also the lead rope must be clipped to the anchor with the biner above the prusik knot (in order for the piece to provide protection for the leader)." p.384 The complete book of bigwall climbing by Chongo.

My prusiks are about 3’ long… that’s about 7.5’of 5mm or 6mm perlon.

-Robert


(This post was edited by alpineH on May 25, 2007, 11:22 PM)


healyje


May 25, 2007, 11:34 PM
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Re: [wanderlustmd] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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wanderlustmd wrote:
Have you/other people had this problem with the Wren Soloist, or just the Gri-Gri?

Friends don't let friends solo with Soloists - they won't hold falls where your body gets parallel to the ground let alone upside-down.


alpine_guru


May 26, 2007, 7:31 AM
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Re: [healyje] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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Thats why you use a backup knot. The Wren Soloist is a purpose designed device but like most things it has limitations. I use mine frequently with no problems. To answer Wanderlustmd's question though yes you will most likely experience the same problems with the Soloist you do with the Gri-Gri. In fact i would say the Soloist has a much worse problem in this respect then the Gri-Gri. Attaching your rope to your pro in some manner a few times a pitch will help though.

Reed


wanderlustmd


May 26, 2007, 2:01 PM
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Re: [healyje] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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Really? I thought the Soloist was purposefully designed to hold in those orientation(s). I'm not referring to the solo aid, which, you're right, will not hold.

You'd have trouble free climbing with a gri-gri, though.


8flood8


May 26, 2007, 2:53 PM
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Re: [a.a.] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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i'm not entirely sure i understand the op, due to the responses...

if my understanding is correct... i proffer this:

the backup for a gri gri can be a clove hitch attached to your harness.

(the understanding being that he needs a backup for his gri-gri that can be adjusted while soloing)


a.a.


May 26, 2007, 6:56 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:
i'm not entirely sure i understand the op, due to the responses...

if my understanding is correct... i proffer this:

the backup for a gri gri can be a clove hitch attached to your harness.

(the understanding being that he needs a backup for his gri-gri that can be adjusted while soloing)

The question wasn't with how to tie a backup but rather, once the backup is tied, it can lead to slack slipping through the gri-gri do to the unbalanced weight of the two ropes.

I've gotten a lot of good responses here, thanks guys! I was leading on a 9.8 which was probably not the best thing. I'll try getting a thicker rope and use some sort of rubber band/prussik method if that doesn't fix things.


healyje


May 26, 2007, 6:59 PM
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Re: [alpine_guru] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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alpine_guru wrote:
Thats why you use a backup knot.

That's fine on multipitch or once you're off the deck aways and the backup knot will do you any good. Off the belay or low to the ground you can be badly hurt with one of these. I know of one ground fall from using one and that person got merely horizontal, not inverted.


healyje


May 26, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Re: [wanderlustmd] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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wanderlustmd wrote:
You'd have trouble free climbing with a gri-gri, though.

50% of my [free] climbing has been roped solo for thirty years. Have used a grigri for the last decade or so and it works just fine even if not great. The Eddy on the otherhand does work great.


8flood8


May 26, 2007, 8:43 PM
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so you are talking about slack building in between your clove hitch and your gri gri?


i don't understand what is slipping. of course i'm not a solo aid climber... but it is very interesting


a.a.


May 26, 2007, 9:00 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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When the backup knot gets close to the gri-gri there isn't much weight on that end of the rope. If you are high on a pitch the lead rope can weigh enough to pull more rope through that side.


Partner holdplease2


May 26, 2007, 11:13 PM
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Yeah, you basically look down, and see the rope running through your grigri down the pitch, and think everything is fine.

But then you notice that the loop of slack between your grigri and your backup knot is disappearing faster than you are climbing...

You may not be able to see it, but the rope has been creeping through your belay device, and you can have a giant loop of slack down at the belay.

If you fall, rather than falling just the normal length, you now have the nasty surprise of an extra 30 feet, or whatever, of slack in your system that you didn't know about. Very dangerous.

-Kate.


wanderlustmd


May 27, 2007, 1:45 PM
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Re: [healyje] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
wanderlustmd wrote:
You'd have trouble free climbing with a gri-gri, though.

50% of my [free] climbing has been roped solo for thirty years. Have used a grigri for the last decade or so and it works just fine even if not great. The Eddy on the otherhand does work great.

Not familiar with that one. And I mixed up my devices above; you're right about the soloist. What I meant was the Wren Silent Partner, which is supposed to be specifically designed to hold up in horizontal/upside down falls. Have you ever used it? What did you think?


stymingersfink


May 27, 2007, 8:41 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:
i'm not entirely sure i understand the op, due to the responses...

if my understanding is correct... i proffer this:

the backup for a gri gri can be a clove hitch attached to your harness.

(the understanding being that he needs a backup for his gri-gri that can be adjusted while soloing)
and
8flood8 wrote:
so you are talking about slack building in between your clove hitch and your gri gri?


i don't understand what is slipping. of course i'm not a solo aid climber... but it is very interesting

then how 'bout not proffering advice about something of which you know not?

...and if ya pay attention in this forum here perhaps you WILL be a solo aid climber, and soon.


healyje


May 28, 2007, 12:39 PM
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Re: [wanderlustmd] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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wanderlustmd wrote:
healyje wrote:
wanderlustmd wrote:
You'd have trouble free climbing with a gri-gri, though.

50% of my [free] climbing has been roped solo for thirty years. Have used a grigri for the last decade or so and it works just fine even if not great. The Eddy on the otherhand does work great.

Not familiar with that one. And I mixed up my devices above; you're right about the soloist. What I meant was the Wren Silent Partner, which is supposed to be specifically designed to hold up in horizontal/upside down falls. Have you ever used it? What did you think?

The Silent Partner does work great. I just have never quite come to terms with the size of it and the need to carry a seperate device for rapping back to the start of the pitch. The inventor, Mark Blanchard, who makes beautiful guitars and anything else that pops into his mind, was at a party recently and gave everyone a demo. I told him I'd give it another look but haven't had a chance to again.

Here is a picture of an Edelrid Eddy:




epic_ed


May 28, 2007, 11:42 PM
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Re: [alpineH] Gri-gri backup. [In reply to]
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alpineH wrote:
Great question!!!! just like holdplease2
said.The best system that I have been using to prevent the "self feeding thing" is to use a long prusik attached to pieces along the way to hold the rope up, about four per pitch or so will treat you fine.

This quote may make more sense...

"A prusik loop can be used to bear part of the weight of the lead line while self belaying is an option. Using long prusik loop in this way spares the leader from having to do so and prevents rope from inadvertently accumulating a loose bit between climber and belay station. This is loose rope will add that much distance to a fall (should one occur). To reduce the likelihood of dislodging an anchor by the upward pull of a fall, the rope should be pulled taut. Also the lead rope must be clipped to the anchor with the biner above the prusik knot (in order for the piece to provide protection for the leader)." p.384 The complete book of bigwall climbing by Chongo.

My prusiks are about 3’ long… that’s about 7.5’of 5mm or 6mm perlon.

-Robert

The rubberband suggestion offered by Kate is a much safer solution. Even a long prussik will reduce the dynamic properties of the lead rope if it cinches up when you fall. If it fails to cinch, the rope on cord friction can damage your lead rope. There are stories of early soloists who used prussik knots to self belay and some learn the hard way that you can burn through your prussik knot in a fall. A rubberband is much better for a re-belay when you don't need it (or want it) to hold in a fall.

On a different note -- has anyone done a few solo aid pitches with the Eddy? I'd love to hear a report about the pros and cons.

Ed

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