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jp_sucks
May 21, 2007, 7:14 PM
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CALGARY — Two climbers are dead after falling off a mountain in Kananaskis Country on the weekend. RCMP Sgt. Patrick Webb said the two men had been roped together when the accident happened about 5 p.m. Saturday.
Webb said on the way back down, one of them slipped or fell and took the other down along the way. Christopher Lynn, 40, of Calgary and Scott Whelan, 25, of Olds, Alta., had been with three other climbers at the time of the fall.
Webb said no one else was injured.
Conservation officers flew to the area with the assistance of Canmore’s Alpine Helicopters Ltd. to rescue the pair, but found them dead at the scene.
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majid_sabet
May 21, 2007, 7:41 PM
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Exact same accident happened in Denali last week, report also is post on this fourm.
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time2clmb
May 21, 2007, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: Whelan, a Newfoundland native who moved to Alberta for the second time about two years ago, was an outdoors type and had been hiking a few times, but " this was his second time roping," his cousin told the Herald. Whelan had left Friday for the climbing trip with four others, including three rookies, said Renee Coffin, who had been living with her cousin in Olds
Quoted from the Calgary Herald.
Apparantly the one older guy was "experienced" according to another paper. I am curious to know how experienced this guy was to bring out a group of 4 begginers onto a mountain. I really hope it was not a case of an over inflated self proclaimed experienced climber playing guide. Sounds like they were all from central Alberta and the one guy from back east.
This really must suck for the families. Condolences.
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majid_sabet
May 21, 2007, 9:28 PM
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time2clmb wrote: In reply to: Whelan, a Newfoundland native who moved to Alberta for the second time about two years ago, was an outdoors type and had been hiking a few times, but " this was his second time roping," his cousin told the Herald. Whelan had left Friday for the climbing trip with four others, including three rookies, said Renee Coffin, who had been living with her cousin in Olds Quoted from the Calgary Herald. Apparantly the one older guy was "experienced" according to another paper. I am curious to know how experienced this guy was to bring out a group of 4 begginers onto a mountain. I really hope it was not a case of an over inflated self proclaimed experienced climber playing guide. Sounds like they were all from central Alberta and the one guy from back east. This really must suck for the families. Condolences.
Not to generalize this but Canada especially the BC and Alberta area is home to many good climbers, some are extremely experienced and very knowledgeable.
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time2clmb
May 21, 2007, 11:54 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: time2clmb wrote: In reply to: Whelan, a Newfoundland native who moved to Alberta for the second time about two years ago, was an outdoors type and had been hiking a few times, but " this was his second time roping," his cousin told the Herald. Whelan had left Friday for the climbing trip with four others, including three rookies, said Renee Coffin, who had been living with her cousin in Olds Quoted from the Calgary Herald. Apparantly the one older guy was "experienced" according to another paper. I am curious to know how experienced this guy was to bring out a group of 4 begginers onto a mountain. I really hope it was not a case of an over inflated self proclaimed experienced climber playing guide. Sounds like they were all from central Alberta and the one guy from back east. This really must suck for the families. Condolences. Not to generalize this but Canada especially the BC and Alberta area is home to many good climbers, some are extremely experienced and very knowledgeable.
Totally aware of that. I think the old guy was from Calgary...lots of very talented climbers in Calgary. Alot of not talented people from there too.
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jp_sucks
May 21, 2007, 11:56 PM
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True, but we also have lots of inexperienced people too. The location of a person really doesn't have ANY bearing on their skills and experience levels...
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time2clmb
May 22, 2007, 12:37 AM
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I was playing nice...fuck it. Calgary also has ALOT of complete gumbies that claim to be experienced. I am just hoping that their "leader" was not one of these self proclaimed been out for a year rock stars.
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gordonfreeman
May 22, 2007, 1:20 AM
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THis accident follows the pattern that plays out pretty much every year here in Alberta. Someone from out east, (often Ontario) comes here for work, explores the mountains, under estimates the seriousness of the route, over estimates their experience and ability, gets in over their head and some bad shit results.
It is most often males 18 - 25, but female are not immune, such as on Mt Richardson 3 years ago.
Admittedly this incident deviates somewhat from the pattern in that there is a purported 'expereinced' leader. But really what kind of experienced climber takes a group of beginners to face the exposure of Lorette when the weather is shit. Boggles the mind.
I feel sadness for the young guy but anger for the leader, especially when the rewarding, poor weather scrambling slopes of Baldy are literally across the road.
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skinner
May 23, 2007, 4:07 PM
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We climbed Lorette 2 weeks ago, after turning back three weeks ago because of rain-turned to snow.
Two weeks ago, we were standing on the summit on a perfectly clear day, when out of nowhere we got hit by a blast of wind that knocked us off our feet.
We no sooner got up when we were hit by another, even stronger. It got to the point where we literally ended up crawling on our hands and knees along the ridge. I checked the wind speed with Environment Canada when I got back, they had recorded speeds of 109kmh at nearby Nakiska Ridge but figured that they were probably gusting substantially higher (possibly as high as 130kmh) on Lorette ridge due to it's location, which is basically broadside to everything funneling down the Kananaskis Valley.
The wind shifted slightly, and along with it came all the dirt and grit off of the south face. Not only did we have to crawl, but now had to do so squinting through eyes full of dirt. I knew we had to get off of the ridge, and suspected that the weather was probably on it's way right behind the wind. Even after we managed to get over a small drop and somewhat sheltered from the direct blast, we couldn't walk. It was ridiculous, if you lifted your foot off of the ground, you could not for the life of you put down within even 2-feet of where you intended. Throwing a rope was impossible, and if you were to ever let go of the ends you'd be screwed. To avoid making this already long comment into a TR, the end result was that we intentionally went off route and headed for the North side of the SE ridge to get out of the wind and into a patch of trees where we bivi'd at 2AM in -3° c. temps. (with no bivi gear).
That was my second time up Lorette, the first time it was such a simple and straight forward climb that I was disappointed by the lack of technical rock on the route, which we went up and down in time to spend the rest of the afternoon playing around at Wasootch Slabs with some friends.
A Few things..
I never thought I would see the day that I would end up leaving gear in order to get off of something as easy as Lorette.
I never thought I would be forced to bivi on an 8000' peak that stands literally right beside a Highway.
These latest two fatalities now brings the death toll on Lorette to (4)
I never understood how the one previous fatality which occurred,(Jul-2003 age 23) happened, even though he was soloing, but in apparently in good conditions. I say this only because the report says that "he had fallen down the slope for approximately 150 to 200 feet". If he only fell 150-200 (as if that's not far enough) he had to have been lower on the ridge where the climbing would be classified as "easy to moderate scrambling" at best.
The other one that occurred the same year (Feb-2003 age 18) I sort of suspect that he was not only soloing, but in winter conditions w/o crampons or a rope, which would involve down climbing on possibly ice-covered ledges.. a recipe for disaster.
Although I hesitate to pass judgement on how or why this latest party of five ended up on or near the summit in a snow storm, as we had decided to nix climbing for the day due to the approaching weather, increasing winds, and dropping temps., I can totally understand now how one could get "blown off" of this minor summit especially if the route/ledges had become covered in snow. I have no doubt that their lack of experience was a major contributing factor. What a sad way to end a trip, my condolences go out to the family and friends.
(Here's a photo) of my 13 year old son in the area of the "notch" which is close to where I suspect they fell from.
(Here's another) on the way down just after the wind started. (notice the rope flying off to the side)
If you go to the News Report (Here).. and click on the "Kevin Flemming Reports" link at the right, you can veiw the video report.
(for as long as it's available)
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time2clmb
May 23, 2007, 4:19 PM
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In reply to: , when out of nowhere we got hit by a blast of wind that knocked us off our feet
The same thing happened to my wife and I in the notch on Wasootch tower. The wind that blows through that area can be quite intense. Put wet snow or rain on the ground and add a strong gust of wind.....
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the_climber
May 23, 2007, 4:36 PM
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This is a sad addition to the other accidents outside of the climbing world that occured this past long weekend. It always hit close to home when something like this happens locally. Even moreso when it happens on a route that you've been on.
What Skinner wrote about how strong the wind can get up there is right. I've been on Lorette twice, the first time we turned back due to a "came out of nowhere" storm with very high winds. The second time was last spring and we had relatively good weather, with the exeption of a couple windy periods. You would have to time when you crossed some sections with when the gusts came. The gusts weren't exceptionally strong, but, as Skinner was saying the, the ridge is almost completely broadside to the winds blowing up the valley and it doesn't take that strong of a wind to cause a loss of balance. I would suspect that the wind was the culprate here, but there really aren't enough details yet, and untill I get more info I won't speculate as to what might have transpired up there.
My condolences to the family's of the two fallen climbers, and to the others in their party.
Climb safe everyone.
Remember, the Rockies have dynamic weather and rock isn't always as solid and may seem.
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skinner
May 23, 2007, 6:02 PM
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Here's how it was explained to me..
A good majority of the wind coming down the Bow Valley from Banff-Canmore, goes straight through the Skogan Valley Green Arrows, where a funneling effect actually increases it's speed.
Right in front of Lorette it collides with the wind coming down the Kananaskis Valley Red Arrows all the way from the Highwood (74km).
Two things happen. A buffeting effect can occur (gusts) depending in the speed differential between the two winds. The wind from the Skogan Valley increases in speed even more as it is drawn in and around Lorette, into the Kananaskis and eventually Bow Valleys.
When you have the wind coming from these two directions, the result is unusually high wind speeds on and around Lorette in comparison with the surrounding areas.
So if the winds are recorded at 100kmh at Nakiska Ridge, apparently you can add as much as 40kmh on the Lorette Ridge.
The day we climbed it..
At the time of the accident the temp. was -1.5° c on Nakiska Ridge, and no doubt even colder on Lorette judging by the accumulated snow. With even a 60kmh wind it would bring the wind-chill in at around -10, -11° c. Had they been totally unprepared, rain gear, warm clothing, etc. I wouldn't doubt that hypothermia would have played a part with judgement and co-ordination.
As far as Wasootch goes.. It's ALWAYS windy there!
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the_climber
May 23, 2007, 6:15 PM
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skinner wrote: Here's how it was explained to me.. A good majority of the wind coming down the Bow Valley from Banff-Canmore, goes straight through the Skogan Valley Green Arrows, where a funneling effect actually increases it's speed. Right in front of Lorette it collides with the wind coming down the Kananaskis Valley Red Arrows all the way from the Highwood (74km).
I never realized how much funneling of the wind occurs there till I say that! Truely unreal.
skinner wrote: Two things happen. A buffeting effect can occur (gusts) depending in the speed differential between the two winds. The wind from the Skogan Valley increases in speed even more as it is drawn in and around Lorette, into the Kananaskis and eventually Bow Valleys. When you have the wind coming from these two directions, the result is unusually high wind speeds on and around Lorette in comparison with the surrounding areas. So if the winds are recorded at 100kmh at Nakiska Ridge, apparently you can add as much as 40kmh on the Lorette Ridge. The day we climbed it.. At the time of the accident the temp. was -1.5° c on Nakiska Ridge, and no doubt even colder on Lorette judging by the accumulated snow. With even a 60kmh wind it would bring the wind-chill in at around -10, -11° c. Had they been totally unprepared, rain gear, warm clothing, etc. I wouldn't doubt that hypothermia would have played a part with judgement and co-ordination.
I would imagine it was more than a little inhospitable up there for them. I was in Wiaparous on Saturday, I don't know what the winds were like in the Kan, but there were some pretty strong gusts where I was and some crazy fast moving clouds. I would expect the gust were quite strong on Lorette.
Glad you didn't epic too bad on your trip Skinner... that was a recipe for bad news on your trip. Mind you we weren't far off from having to bivi on our first attempt on Lorette. So windy and snowy we were forced to drop off the east side and rap down. Good thing I was carrying pins at the time
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skinner
May 23, 2007, 6:49 PM
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Well.. I'm an old guy, been climbing for 30 years, so it was just another situation to deal with for me, but a good experience for my son. (hudled here under an emergency blanket the next morning) I managed to only leave one nut behind, the rest of the raps were done off of slings around natural horns. Oh, and 2 biners that I had found ice climbing this winter, only because I was short of rap rings. I still carry pitons (this is rotten limestone for gawd sakes), the soft iron kind with the ring built right into it, so that is all you have to leave, and it ends up becomes an anchor for everyone else usually. In our area, not carrying a good supply of "bail gear" is a bad idea. I should add, when roped together on a ridge like that, dropping in even the odd peice on a long runner isn't a bad idea either, and could have made the difference in this case.
(This post was edited by skinner on May 23, 2007, 6:56 PM)
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the_climber
May 23, 2007, 7:08 PM
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Good points. Climb long enough and you will end up sleeping (if you can call it that) in an unexpected place. Sometimes you don't have to climb that long, as in your son's case.
As far as placing the occational piece in when on a ridge, and carrying an adequate kit of bail gear around here. We are in 110% agreement on that!
I've always tried to place a few pieces between us on ridges out of habit and for the "what if" factor/variable.
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gordonfreeman
May 23, 2007, 8:18 PM
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It is thought that wind played a part in the Feb 2003 fall on Lorette.
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the_climber
May 23, 2007, 9:04 PM
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My understanding of it (Feb 2003) was that he was soloing with minimal gear and may not have been fully prepared for winter conditions (ie. no crampons...). Having been on the mountain not too long after teh Feb 2003 incident, I can say that parts of the ridge were covered with ice/very hard packed snow. We turned back that time due to approaching weather which made for a near epic decent. As he was higher on the ridge based on how far he fell, adding wind to the whole equation... Not a good recipe.
We'll likely start to get more info on this new one in a few days if the other climbers who were up there provide it... if not, it's all speculation.
(This post was edited by the_climber on May 23, 2007, 9:08 PM)
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pyramid
May 25, 2007, 1:04 PM
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What's with this old guy talk? You won't think your
so old when you turn 40. Nice pics Skinner, brings
back memories.
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skinner
May 26, 2007, 1:17 PM
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As It turns out, I know one of the people that was in the party involved in this accident. I talked with him on the phone last night, and although he did give me some details of the incident, I didn't bother asking any questions, as I feel It's an inappropriate time to say the least. I'm going to refrain from posting any particulars, partly for that reason, as well as the fact that I do not feel it's my place to do so at this time. There are still funerals going on, in fact he was in the middle of writing a eulogy when I called. It was a horrific thing to witness for the 3 that made it down. The family and friends are still in shock and grieving.
I will however point out that, they weren't just a group of hikers in over their heads, (as it was put in one of the online forums), but just like many of the people here on rc.com, they were a relatively inexperienced but enthusiast group that loved the mountains and climbed together regularly. Contrary to some of the reports/speculation, they did have more then just "a rope", in fact they had (2) 60m ropes, and their rack contained both cams and pitons that I know of.
As climbers.. by nature we want to know what happened, what went wrong and why. Eventually, If they don't mind, I'd like to recount the technical details that led to such a catastrophic failure in the hopes that others may learn from it and avoid a repeat of this kind.
My sincere condolences go out to the family and friends of Chris & Scotty, the mountaineering community shares in your loss.
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skinner
May 26, 2007, 1:41 PM
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pyramid wrote: What's with this old guy talk? You won't think your so old when you turn 40. Nice pics Skinner, brings back memories.
You may have mis-read.. I'm not "30 years old", but "have been climbing for 30 years". I turned 40 a while ago and the ole odometer will be clicking over again a few days, but I feel fortunate that despite some serious injuries I sustained over the years, it hasn't slowed me down at all, (hasn't sped me up either mind you) in fact I'm climbing more then ever.
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pyramid
May 27, 2007, 1:52 PM
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I understood you skinner, one of the other participants said old guy.
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the_climber
May 28, 2007, 6:16 PM
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Skinner, I agree w/ holding out on the details till after everything has set it for those involved. Sorry you friend had to go through that, send him my best.
I've had a lot of people ask me my opinion on this accident recently and I keep telling them I am reserving my thought on it till I have more details about it.
I was out near there on Saturday and looking up at the ridge, remembering my experiances up there.... for such a small mountain (elevation wise) there is a lot of exposure on it. I too heard recently that they did have an adequate rack for the climb. hopefully there is something we as a comunity can learn from this, but that will come out when the time is appropriet. As it should.
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skinner
May 30, 2007, 1:44 PM
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the_climber wrote: Skinner, I agree w/ holding out on the details till after everything has set it for those involved. Sorry you friend had to go through that, send him my best. I've had a lot of people ask me my opinion on this accident recently and I keep telling them I am reserving my thought on it till I have more details about it..
Thank you for your thoughts and consideration, greatly appreciated.
the_climber wrote: I was out near there on Saturday and looking up at the ridge, remembering my experiances up there.... for such a small mountain (elevation wise) there is a lot of exposure on it.
The exposure on Lorette is probably one of the things that attracts people to it, and causes many to return for a second and third time. There are not many places where you can climb only a few pitches of 5.6 and put yourself on a narrow ridge with an 800' drop.
the_climber wrote: I too heard recently that they did have an adequate rack for the climb..
One thing I can say, is that not only did they have an adequate rack, but they had passed by, possibly used, maybe even bootied, the anchors that we had left behind on our retreat during the storm. When I talked my friend he identified the gear and my red-white-red marking tape.
the_climber wrote: hopefully there is something we as a comunity can learn from this, but that will come out when the time is appropriet. As it should.
I hope so too, which is a choice people have to make for themselves. They can either learn from incidents like this and pass the information on, or just call people gumbies, etc. as some in various online forums have chosen to do with only scant details of information that, as it turns out are somewhat misleading.
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