Dingus is right in saying that 20 years from now, most newbies will probably have moved onto something else, but who cares....those people will continue to have respect for the mental and physical toughness that the sport requires.

Many of these so called climbers have very poor attitudes. I'll wager this dingus character is one of those skinny gym punks that I commonly see at the rock climbing gym.

Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

Wow, did you just hit the nail on the head! Dingus is a 16-year-old gym climber with 6% body fat who warms up on V7. How did you know?

Jay

I totally agree with you, I've found all the people I've come across have been really supportive. But this thread is making me think otherwise...

..BTW, lil kids in gyms can outclimb (moves and strength) many of the old folks now who've been doing it for 20 years. Makes you wonder what standards will eventually hit...

In 20 years MOST of you will have moved on to marriage, jobs, mortgages and the daily grind.

About one in 20 of you will still be climbing, as fervent then as you are now, maybe more so. You? You're tribal mate, you've earned your keep.

Dingus, your math is likely wildly off. I'd guess more like somewhere between 20 days and 20 months 50% of noobs will have moved on and 2 years will probably tap out another 20-30%. Of those left, I suspect the numbers at 20 years will be more like one in 2000. Out of the total number of teens/twenty somethings who try climbing in 2007, only an incredibly small percentage will be still climbing in 2027 and the number still climbing at 2037 way smaller still. And all along the curve 85% of those survivors will be wholly bolt-supported, sport-only climbers. The number of trad leaders starts small and stays that way.

Confucius say, "99% statistics just made up."

Jay, take your best shot at it then given "made up" is the best anyone is going to do. The point is that take any year's new climbers and draw a curve of their annual attrition rate over the next thirty years. However you draw it, to be credible it would have to show a very steep initial curve and then steady declines after that. Plot a trad curve under that one and one can reasonably figure it never gets too large and sinks a far faster rate than the curve of the total population of annual survivors.

Quit it, guys, I'm getting hot. If someone says they flashed, I'm gonna get bothered too.

And while I appreciate your sense of ownership, this is a sport, not a secret society.

Quit it, guys, I'm getting hot. If someone says they flashed, I'm gonna get bothered too.

And while I appreciate your sense of ownership, this is a sport, not a secret society.

...and the number still climbing at 2037 way smaller still. And all along the curve 85% of those survivors will be wholly bolt-supported, sport-only climbers. The number of trad leaders starts small and stays that way.

The more new people that climb chdembabe the faster they will kill the sport. They'll also trample those wild places you cherish but that's a different topic.

A noob opens a mag today, sees the sport of climbing for the first time. Wow! Says he, I want to do THAT!

So he enters the cycle.

By the time be *becomes* that climber he envisioned he will have killed the sport to get there. HIS sport in turn will eventually be killed by noobs as well.

It has always been this way. Noob inferiority complexes notwithstanding, to become the king the king must die.

This you need to know.

DMT

There will always be old-timers for whom newbs will kill the sport, but without said newbs the sport dies anyway; the important thing to remember is that things will all be fine so long as one thing in the sport remains constant, and that thing is... making fun of the French.

I’m not usually given to posting strong opinions on RC but this whole debate is pissing me off:

First off, oh man… I have so much fun reading RC.COM in the morning for all the hypocrisy and hubris that gets dumped on it everyday. On one side you have people who ask a lot of questions - some good, some inane or annoying, and on the other we have those who prey and troll on the first group. Anyway, no wonder nobody every posts anything of substance anymore; every thread degenerates into a chorus of voices telling "n00bs to STFU" and n00bs crying and wailing in righteous indignation.

First of all n00bs, for better or worse keep he sport going. I agree that there is waaaaaaay too many repetitive questions about "what do I do with a rope" or "can I use a shoelace for an anchor" - the answers are all there if people just would take time to do a search. Ask in the forum if you're really stuck...

On the other hand - and I can't decide which one is worse - are people who once were n00bs themselves, achieved some proficiency with tools and skills of the trade, and feel themselves entitled to put everyone else down. If you're so eager to protect the sport then educate and teach the ethic of climbing. Standing high'n mighty and pissing down on everybody else just alienates the first group and doesn't bring about any positive change in the community.

And I guess that's the point I'm trying to get at. If this were a true community then there would be no n00bs with stupid questions because the assholes who normally would flame them would take part in inculcating positive values and ethics. Instead what we get is this group of self-important jerks who shit on everybody else who they feel is beneath them. What it really is just a whole lot of masturbation. Oh, and what is thing about climbing being "our" sport? I didn't know it belonged to anyone. Who gave it to us - did Moses come down from the mountain and handed someone the deed to climbing? I must have missed the memo...

Anyway, when I first started climbing I was truly lucky to run into a true veteran of the sport who took me in and cared enough to keep me from killing myself until I learned how to do things properly for myself... and who, most-importantly reinforced the true ethics of climbing.

So who's really killing 'the sport'... really?