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nieder
Jun 6, 2007, 4:51 PM
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Does anyone have more information about the accident in Zion yesterday?
From kutv.com:
Man Dies After Fall In Zion National Park
ZION NATIONAL PARK, Utah A California man is dead after a fall in Zion National Park.
Park officials say Keith Biedermann, of Garden Grove, California, was with two others canyoneering in the Heaps Canyon area.
The group had completed the 285-foot final rappel out of the canyon and were in the upper Emerald Pools area when the 48-year-old fell to his death. It is not clear what caused the fall.
The canyon is temporarily closed while the incident is under investigation by the Washington County Sheriff's Office and the National Park Service.
http://kutv.com/...story_157093522.html
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_6073540
http://www.thespectrum.com/...0605/NEWS01/70605008
(This post was edited by nieder on Jun 6, 2007, 5:01 PM)
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skinner
Jun 6, 2007, 5:41 PM
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I'm not sure what date Keith Biedermann wrote this Thank You note, but it looks like he had apparently taken a 2 Day Advanced Canyoneering Course on May 28th - 29th 2007 with North Wash Outfitters
Another sad day in the back country.
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majid_sabet
Jun 6, 2007, 6:17 PM
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skinner wrote: I'm not sure what date Keith Biedermann wrote this Thank You note, but it looks like he had apparently taken a 2 Day Advanced Canyoneering Course on May 28th - 29th 2007 with North Wash Outfitters Another sad day in the back country.
This accident may not be even rapping related so we just have to wait till NPS post their report on-line but I am still wondering if an average person who pays $200 can absorb all of these in two days, then pull the student out 4 days later and see if they remember 50% of it.
advanced knots and anchor systems
advanced pothole techniques
rigging and using retrievable anchor systems
advanced techniques for rope deployment
efficient rope management
multi-pitch rappels
sequencing and pre rigged rappels
combination rappel and passive lower for long drops
advanced rope work for traverses and extremely strong water current
direct aid climbing techniques
guided rappels, re-belays and deviations
passing knots on ascend and rappel
strategies for first descents
and more
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 6, 2007, 6:20 PM)
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carabiner96
Jun 6, 2007, 6:48 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: skinner wrote: I'm not sure what date Keith Biedermann wrote this Thank You note, but it looks like he had apparently taken a 2 Day Advanced Canyoneering Course on May 28th - 29th 2007 with North Wash Outfitters Another sad day in the back country. This accident may not be even rapping related so we just have to wait till NPS post their report on-line but I am still wondering if an average person who pays $200 can absorb all of these in two days, then pull the student out 4 days later and see if they remember 50% of it. advanced knots and anchor systems advanced pothole techniques rigging and using retrievable anchor systems advanced techniques for rope deployment efficient rope management multi-pitch rappels sequencing and pre rigged rappels combination rappel and passive lower for long drops advanced rope work for traverses and extremely strong water current direct aid climbing techniques guided rappels, re-belays and deviations passing knots on ascend and rappel strategies for first descents and more
One would think that as he was taking the advanced course he was already fairly familiar with the basics of most of the subjects. But who knows?
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skinner
Jun 6, 2007, 7:33 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: One would think that as he was taking the advanced course he was already fairly familiar with the basics of most of the subjects. But who knows?
My point exactly.
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majid_sabet
Jun 6, 2007, 9:10 PM
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strategies for first descents
and more
More !!!! I see
Like what ?
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carabiner96
Jun 6, 2007, 9:19 PM
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Does that really matter? Off topic, majid.
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jakedatc
Jun 6, 2007, 9:23 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: strategies for first descents and more More !!!! I see Like what ?
WTF?? that's barely english.. can we re-ban him from IA?
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hummm
Jun 6, 2007, 9:43 PM
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He is referring to the course description. His way of being sarcastic.
If people get ban from bad english, 75% of us will won't be here anymore. [/laugh]
Sorry to hear about the rap fall. 
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foeslts16
Jun 6, 2007, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: can we re-ban him from IA
that's a very slippery slope to go down, i can think of about 20 others that would be ahead of majid.
I am not by an means defending majid, but it seems like in some language ( maybe not english) he is trying to be helpful.
rc.com is all about differing viewpoints, some we like, some we don't, some we can't even interpret.
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walter
Jun 6, 2007, 9:56 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: This accident may not be even rapping related so we just have to wait till NPS post their report on-line but I am still wondering if an average person who pays $200 can absorb all of these in two days, then pull the student out 4 days later and see if they remember 50% of it.
The problem with Majid's reply is that it directly implies that KB was just another idiot in way over his head (yawn).
It's:
unfortunate,
insulting to a dead man,
utterly baseless in any established fact,
and most problematically, utterly unhelpful to anyone at all.
So man, what's yer point?
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majid_sabet
Jun 6, 2007, 10:13 PM
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walter wrote: majid_sabet wrote: This accident may not be even rapping related so we just have to wait till NPS post their report on-line but I am still wondering if an average person who pays $200 can absorb all of these in two days, then pull the student out 4 days later and see if they remember 50% of it. The problem with Majid's reply is that it directly implies that KB was just another idiot in way over his head (yawn). It's: unfortunate, insulting to a dead man, utterly baseless in any established fact, and most problematically, utterly unhelpful to anyone at all. So man, what's yer point?
No that was not my point.
I was referring to the idiot who teach the so called advance courses just make $200 and few days later one the his student dies of whatever.
I just hope he was not killed due to some rapping error or accidently tied a wrong knot.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 6, 2007, 10:14 PM)
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walter
Jun 6, 2007, 10:28 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I was referring to the idiot who teach the so called advance courses just make $200 and few days later one the his student dies of whatever.
Great - more insulting, uninformed, and useless speculation. Keep 'em coming, man.
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foeslts16
Jun 6, 2007, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: utterly unhelpful to anyone at all. So man, what's yer point?
so are you now going to be the ph test for what is useful and helpful on rc.com.
maybe you should browse some of the 1500 recent threads that are utterly useless, or maybe some of the 1800 useless post by users telling noobs that if they don't know the answer to their own questions, they shouldn't be climbing.
my point is......... why bitch about this guy, why not ignore his ranting and actually contribute something to rc.com, make this place more productive.
that's my point...
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jakedatc
Jun 6, 2007, 11:09 PM
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foeslts16 wrote: In reply to: utterly unhelpful to anyone at all. So man, what's yer point? so are you now going to be the ph test for what is useful and helpful on rc.com. maybe you should browse some of the 1500 recent threads that are utterly useless, or maybe some of the 1800 useless post by users telling noobs that if they don't know the answer to their own questions, they shouldn't be climbing. my point is......... why bitch about this guy, why not ignore his ranting and actually contribute something to rc.com, make this place more productive. that's my point...
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walter
Jun 6, 2007, 11:50 PM
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foeslts16 wrote: In reply to: utterly unhelpful to anyone at all. So man, what's yer point? my point is......... why bitch about this guy, why not ignore his ranting and actually contribute something to rc.com, make this place more productive.
Why bitch about this guy? Because he's ignorant and insulting in this accident forum, where such ignorant insults can a) emotionally harmful to the injured (or dead) parties and their families, and b) distract and mis-thread the discussion away from any useful lessons the rest of us might learn from the accidents. In short, he's helping exactly no one.
I think we as a community owe it to ourselves to self-police the way we discuss accidents.
Getting majid to realize how his posts come across would really improve this place. It might even let it be more productive. You agree, I'm sure, as do many others. That's my point.
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majid_sabet
Jun 6, 2007, 11:57 PM
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walter wrote: foeslts16 wrote: In reply to: utterly unhelpful to anyone at all. So man, what's yer point? my point is......... why bitch about this guy, why not ignore his ranting and actually contribute something to rc.com, make this place more productive. Why bitch about this guy? Because he's ignorant and insulting in this accident forum, where such ignorant insults can a) emotionally harmful to the injured (or dead) parties and their families, and b) distract and mis-thread the discussion away from any useful lessons the rest of us might learn from the accidents. In short, he's helping exactly no one. I think we as a community owe it to ourselves to self-police the way we discuss accidents. Getting majid to realize how his posts come across would really improve this place. It might even let it be more productive. You agree, I'm sure, as do many others. That's my point.
If I had no respect for dead people, I would not bagged them with my own hands
In the middle of night when your as* is sleep dreaming about the next climbing route.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 7, 2007, 12:07 AM)
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disturbingthepeace
Jun 7, 2007, 12:12 AM
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Having done this canyon, the final rappel from Heaps is pretty difficult as rappels go. It is almost 300 ft so you either need to do a single line rap on a 90 meter (skinny) rope with 2 sixties as the pull cord. Or a double line rap and deal with passing the knot. Combine this with it being completely free hanging and you normally have a heavy 40-50lb pack on, or hopefully hanging below you.
So if he went single line it would be very easy to lose control of the rappel. When I did it I used 2 atc's in series which worked great, people in my group without some sort of extra friction had alot of difficulty controlling their speed.
Or since it was late at night, probably dark after a long cold day it is possible he set up his rappel incorrectly.
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walter
Jun 7, 2007, 2:17 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: If I had no respect for dead people, I would not bagged them with my own hands In the middle of night when your as* is sleep dreaming about the next climbing route.
There you go, making insulting assumptions again. You don't know a thing about me, where I've been or what I've done. You're willing to speculate in the name of insult, though.
Your low level of respect for the injured or dead, and inability to have respectful informed discourse, has shown itself many times.
Get over yourself already.
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skinner
Jun 7, 2007, 2:29 AM
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disturbingthepeace wrote: Having done this canyon, the final rappel from Heaps is pretty difficult as rappels go. It is almost 300 ft so you either need to do a single line rap on a 90 meter (skinny) rope with 2 sixties as the pull cord. Or a double line rap and deal with passing the knot. Combine this with it being completely free hanging and you normally have a heavy 40-50lb pack on, or hopefully hanging below you. So if he went single line it would be very easy to lose control of the rappel. When I did it I used 2 atc's in series which worked great, people in my group without some sort of extra friction had alot of difficulty controlling their speed. Or since it was late at night, probably dark after a long cold day it is possible he set up his rappel incorrectly.
Thank You for the description, obviously there was a lot more involved then just a straight forward rappel. All accidents, injury, and/or loss of life are unfortunate and just as devastating to the family and friends regardless of how much experience the victim had.
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jhains
Jun 7, 2007, 2:30 AM
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For anyone who is interested in the accident which happened the other night in Heaps canyon, I think that I might be able to shed a little light on the subject. My party and I were the first group to go down Heaps the morning after the accident. We didn't even know there had been an accident, however, as we descended the first of the last three rappels a ranger with a mega phone called up to us and told about the tragedy. They sent up a camera so we could take pictures of the anchors. The anchors looked bomber. The only abnormality was a pear shaped locking biner attached to one of the rappel rings. After all three in our party had made the final rappel we talked to the ranger about the accident. He said that it looks like the deceased had tried to make a biner block. When they arrived on the scene they found his body still tied into this three hundred foot rope and six feet above him there was a biner tied to his rope with a clove hitch. The current hypothesis is this: instead of running the rope through the rappel rings he ran it through the locking biner, and when he weighted the rope, the biner pulled through the locking biner which was larger than the biner he used for the biner block. However, there are several questions still unanswered. We don't know if the group had head lamps. It was somewhere between 10:30 and 11:00 when he fell. Maybe in the dark something went wrong that could better explain the situation. Also, when the rangers got to the scene, the 300 foot rope was not attached to the two 200 foot tag ropes. Maybe one of his partners was supposed to weight the tag line and one of the knots attaching the ropes came loose. However, the rangers don't think this is the case after interviewing the other members in his party. At any case, there does not appear to have been any equipment failure that resulted in the accident. |
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hanginaround
Jun 7, 2007, 4:20 AM
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I can't call Keith a close friend, but I do think of him as more than just an acquaintance. I met him at last years ACA San Gabriel Rendezvous and we did San Antonio Canyon togather. He was a good guy with a zeal for canyoneering. A guy I would have liked to have canyoneered with more.
I saw him last the Chris Brennen's home, he was excited about the formation of a new local canyoneering group and wanted to be involved with it's leadership.
I'm deeply saddened by his death and send my sincerest condolences to his family. He is apparently survived a wife and two daughters.
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majid_sabet
Jun 7, 2007, 5:17 AM
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jhains wrote: For anyone who is interested in the accident which happened the other night in Heaps canyon, I think that I might be able to shed a little light on the subject. My party and I were the first group to go down Heaps the morning after the accident. We didn't even know there had been an accident, however, as we descended the first of the last three rappels a ranger with a mega phone called up to us and told about the tragedy. They sent up a camera so we could take pictures of the anchors. The anchors looked bomber. The only abnormality was a pear shaped locking biner attached to oneof the rappel rings. After all three in our party had made the final rappel we talked to the ranger about the accident. He said that it looks like the deceased had tried to make a biner block. When they arrived on the scene they found his body still tied into this three hundred foot rope and six feet above him there was a biner tied to his rope with a clove hitch. The current hypothesis is this: instead of running the rope through the rappel rings he ran it through the locking biner, and when he weighted the rope, the biner pulled through the locking biner which was larger than the biner he used for the biner block. However, there are several questions still unanswered. We don't know if the group had head lamps. It was somewhere between 10:30 and 11:00 when he fell. Maybe in the dark something went wrong that could better explain the situation. Also, when the rangers got to the scene, the 300 foot rope was not attached to the two 200 foot tag ropes. Maybe one of his partners was supposed to weight the tag line and one of the knots attaching the ropes came loose. However, the rangers don't think this is the case after interviewing the other members in his party. At any case, there does not appear to have been any equipment failure that resulted in the accident. What you said makes it little clear but not by much so lets rewind your report. He was attached to the end of his 300 foot rope via some knot and 6 feet above his harness attachment, there was a clove hitch and biner . Generally, climbers use a clove hitch to anchor themselves so they could easily re adjust their position within an area such as an anchor. Not knowing how far the edge was in relation to anchor point, I am guessing the 6 feet gap from the harness attachment to clove hitch was the distance between edge and the anchor point at the top. If he was found at the base with clove hitch 6 feet above his harness with a biner , most likely some thing went wrong during his anchor setup. My guess is that he thought he was linked in some anchor but he was not attached to any , and I have seen a few accident based on rigging at night where climbers were not attached to any point yet they were working close to edge. Since you were there, can you tell me how far the distance was from the anchor to the edge where you start your rappelling? Thanks
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 7, 2007, 5:20 AM)
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nieder
Jun 7, 2007, 2:40 PM
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I think this site gives a pretty good visual of the biner block that jhains described. See the third photo down and imagine the rope running through another locking biner instead of the quicklink.
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/blocks.php
Very sad for the family.
(This post was edited by nieder on Jun 7, 2007, 2:42 PM)
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