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gthornberg
Jun 26, 2003, 8:38 PM
Post #26 of 49
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1/4" bolts bad. Bad boy. Baaaaaaaaaaad.
Just knock him on the head if he adds more bolts. :x
Praise him if he replaces bad ones.
Maybe bring doggie treats.
GT
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addiroids
Jun 26, 2003, 9:01 PM
Post #27 of 49
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Yeah, I am going to have to take issue with Beyond_Gravity here too:
1) Yes, we who can climb much harder than 5.7, do enjoy getting on a very runout 5.7 because it challenges us.
2) There are a million routes that are well protected for 5.7 leaders. You do NOT have to go and retrobolt/rebolt (whatever) every fvcking route to turn it into a fvcking clip-up just so some newbie can lead it and clip some bolts. If you want to learn how to lead, go to the damn gym.
3) I guarentee when most of these runout 5.7's were put up (1950's) that they did NOT have climbing gyms to learn on. They were true men who learned on the rock with whatever the rock presented to them. They did not try to bring the rock down to their pansy-assed level (not like they were pansy-assed) to lead it.
4) And as said before: If you don't feel up to leading something because it is too challenging for you, just keep on walking motherfvcker. Come back when you are ready, don't be a total douchebag and take it upon yourself to make it "safe" to lead.
I know I sound mad and maybe even a bit elitist, but I think now of the routes I wouldn't lead back when I was a beginning climber. I would never even think of adding bolts to make it easier. I am not elitist, I just don't want all the good climbs to be ruined.
Also, if someone can't sack up to lead a damn 5.7, then I bet you a gear hump on your next wall, that they can't and shouldn't be placing bolts.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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xkyczar
Jun 26, 2003, 10:09 PM
Post #28 of 49
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First of all there are no "rules" about this in the SPlatte until the park service says there is. I or you can chop and retro bolt what ever I or you want. It would be nice if we could agree but that won't ever happen. One of the nice things about the SPlatte is that many of the good rocks are protected by long approaches and will hopefully escape much of the future conflicts.
Second. addiroids, if you climb MUCH harder than 5.7 and run-out 5.7 challenges you - you have a problem. There are a hell of a lot of run-out, nearly identical, non-descript, slabby, 5.6 and 7's in the SPlatte that rarely get climbed because they are to scary for many and too boring for the rest. I would say that it would be nice to add bolts to some except that it would probably be a waste of bolts.
Third. I'll bet this guy won't do it anyway.
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atg200
Jun 26, 2003, 10:55 PM
Post #29 of 49
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tradkelly - those routes will get chopped very quickly. in the platte, even new overbolted routes tend to get chopped pretty quickly most places. personally, i love the moderate runout slab routes there, and would be pissed to see something like plinth on sphonx rock turned into a bolot every 6 feet clipup. tell your friend not to waste his time, and failing that let me know when he is done so i can go harvest some hangers for rebolting projects.
beyond_gravity, yet again you show your inexperience. go out and travel(and please learn the proper nomenclature - its retrobolt, not retrofit) before shooting your mouth off. many of the longer runout moderate slab routes in the platte get a lot of traffic in their current state. and there are plenty of other areas already for similar difficulty in climbing that is well bolted nearby.
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addiroids
Jun 29, 2003, 3:12 AM
Post #30 of 49
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xyzczar: I never said I climb "MUCH" harder than 5.7, I only said I climb "much" harder. And I don't mean a "technical" challenge. Have you ever tried to lead something fast to become more efficient. It IS a challence to find the fastest way up something that is within your difficulty. I have soloed 5.7 before, but with a rope, you can work on belay changeovers too. And I don't solo fast either.
And for the people who are not intimidate or bored by runout 5.7, please don't retrobolt/rebolt this route. I'm sure ATG200 is too busy to go chop it.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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rockprodigy
Jun 30, 2003, 7:02 PM
Post #31 of 49
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Why haven't the bolts on the N. Ridge of Montezuma's Tower in the Garden been chopped yet?
They were added 5 years ago...nobody's gotten around to it yet?
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cjcalls
Jun 30, 2003, 7:40 PM
Post #32 of 49
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number 6 Tricam
works great at getting your point across.
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drector
Jun 30, 2003, 7:57 PM
Post #33 of 49
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There will be no logic to convince someone to not add bolts to a route. The only arguments are emotionally based on things like tradition and respect. Get the guy to talk to some of the other local climbers. They will instill fear, uncertainty, and doubt into his mind through scare tactics so that they can keep their "ownership" intact. I may be sounding negative here but it will still work and they, the other climbers in the area who don't want more bolts, will have the best chance of convincing him. If he is not willing to talk to other people face to face then go with the tradition thing and try to point out other well protected routes in the same range.
If he insists then try to convince him that less is always better when bolting and if only one bolt gets added then it might not get chopped. Tell him to place it well to protect against a ground fall if the route is X.
Dave
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bumpkin
Jun 30, 2003, 8:35 PM
Post #34 of 49
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beyond_gravity asks: who would wants to climb a loose 5.8R anyways?
Leaving aside that looseness is totally off-topic, there are a lot of reasons why you'd want to climb such a route. Personally, I like clipping bolts as much as the next person, but haven't you noticed how at sport climbing areas the routes sorta fade into one another, and are known only by their grade?
"Are we on the 10b?"
"yeah, I think so, that's an 11c over there and that arete is the 9+"
"Oh, is that 'Monkeybonercheesesticks'?"
"Dunno, think its 9+ though"
Whereas a huge amount of my motivation involves aspiring to have the fitness and skill and panache to climb things like Vertigo's Half-Moon crack, or Salathe's Hollow Flake or, closer to your home, Mt Alberta's NW ridge (c'mon, how hard can that be? its only 5.9, right?).
This is all same old, same old. There are hordes of generic (and many non-generic, of course) sport climbs out there. There's no need to eliminate proud routes to add to the pile.
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brianinslc
Jun 30, 2003, 8:45 PM
Post #35 of 49
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You might could get a copy of the current guidebooks (2, one by Ken Trout, one by ?). Look in the front under the acknowledgements and try to get ahold of some of those folks. Interesting bit by Ken in the front of his book on ethics...(makes a statement to the effect that rap placed bolts usually end up being better routes...er something like that...which, for an old trad guy, I thought was pretty interesting)...
Neither guidebook lists FA information, which is a mistake for this very reason (I really like to know the history, btw). So, finding out who did the FA is a bit harder.
Anyhoo, have some of the old guard give this feller a jingle and walk him thru the explanation of how the routes were first done, the history, the part of the experience that makes the routes cool in their present condition. Then mention that there's no need to start a bolt choppin' war if he wouldn't add the bolts to begin with and that the rock will get messed up in the process too, and that ain't a good thing. A couple of phone calls might really help.
Another option: mentor him. Take him up a few of those routes. Get one or more of the old guard to do the same, all the while explaing the importance of local ethics, history, etc. Doesn't have to be unpleasant. Goin' out climbing rarely is...
And...if he's done the routes, even without leading them, then maybe he won't feel the urge to retrobolt them. Or, with enough miles on that type of climbing, he'll learn that some of the sparsely protected routes are fun that way, and a challenge, and that's ok.
Tough issue. Good luck!
Brian in SLC
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xkyczar
Jun 30, 2003, 10:10 PM
Post #36 of 49
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In reply to: You might could get a copy of the current guidebooks (2, one by Ken Trout, one by ?). Look in the front under the acknowledgements and try to get ahold of some of those folks. Interesting bit by Ken in the front of his book on ethics...(makes a statement to the effect that rap placed bolts usually end up being better routes...er something like that...which, for an old trad guy, I thought was pretty interesting)... Brian in SLC
The other book is by Hubble (sp?). Trout has been putting up "bottom down" routes for quite awhile now. I remember him saying that climbing "bottom up" run-out routes was stupid. Not sure if he still feels that way but if you don't want new bolts added he may not be the best FA to call and check with.
I used to boulder at Morrison with a lot of the old SPlatte guys in the early 80's. They would often brag about how poorly protected a route was that they had just put up and that someone would have to be crazy to repeat it.
I'm not condoning adding bolts to existing routes. But I am questioning anyone who regards most of the SPlatte old guys as any sort of ethical gods. Everyone that I met was a good person and a blast to climb with, but it seemed to me that often the lack and quality of protection they fixed was more a joke on those who were to come next.
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dead_milkman
Jun 30, 2003, 10:43 PM
Post #37 of 49
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In reply to: There are many routes here in the Bow Valley that has been retrofitted. [..] I agree, retrofitting classics or climbs that can be protected with gear is idiotic.
Many of the climbs in the Bow Valley that have been retrobolted *are* easily protectable, BG. There are a disgusting number of bolts appearing near beautiful nut placements on at least a half-dozen routes that I can think of right off the top of my head...
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beyond_gravity
Jul 1, 2003, 5:30 AM
Post #38 of 49
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In reply to: In reply to: There are many routes here in the Bow Valley that has been retrofitted. [..] I agree, retrofitting classics or climbs that can be protected with gear is idiotic. Many of the climbs in the Bow Valley that have been retrobolted *are* easily protectable, BG. There are a disgusting number of bolts appearing near beautiful nut placements on at least a half-dozen routes that I can think of right off the top of my head...
I wholey agree with you. who the hell put in all the bolts at wasootch?
The routes i'm thinking of are the ones on Kid Goat. I don't see how anyone can say there are not enough hardcore runouts on yam that they can't spare the routes on kid goat that got climbed once every 5 years.
(not directed at you, milkman)
i'm not the idiot, you're the ones who arn't understanding what i'm talking about. These routes are not high quality clean yosemite granite. They were limestone runout 5.8's with a piece of gear every 40 feet, maybe.
There are PLENTY of routes on yamnuska that will suit the ballsey hardman.
there arn't many moderate bolted multi-pitch climbs here. Retrobolting DOES have it's place. It was also done by respected locals, and I thank them.
I am not talking about overbolting, 10 clips on a full 60m pitch
And you're saying that leading on steep plastic can perpare someone to climb a 5 pitch runout 5.7 slab? If thats the case, I think you're the one who's the idiot.
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bolthappy
Jul 1, 2003, 5:42 AM
Post #39 of 49
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politely tell the retrobolter that once climbs are established that they are test pieces of climbing history and that he would not be doing the climbing community a service by altering them only destroying a part of climbing history.
If that does not work try the IF IT'S NOT YOUR ROUTE DON'T PHUK WITH IT AND IF HE DOES NOT LIKE THEM TO PUT UP HIS OWN FIRST ASCENTS line!!!!
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bumpkin
Jul 1, 2003, 2:20 PM
Post #40 of 49
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BG:
For every Yam route, there are how many totally anonymous canyon clip-ups? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a harmless day sport-wanking, even if the holds are now totally polished and greasy.... and True Grit is a fun ride. These are not retro-bolt jobs. Adding bolts to a proud line is a tricky piece of business. Should you work to bring yourself up to that level, or go the easy way and bring the climb down to yours? Adding bolts to a miserable, unpopular line seems more justifiable, but recognize that "miserable" is pretty subjective. It takes different things than gymstrength to deal with the loose 8R's of the world, and many people value those things.
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dead_milkman
Jul 1, 2003, 9:24 PM
Post #41 of 49
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In reply to: The routes i'm thinking of are the ones on Kid Goat. I don't see how anyone can say there are not enough hardcore runouts on yam that they can't spare the routes on kid goat that got climbed once every 5 years.
All right... Most of the routes on Kid Goat have been retrobolted in the past five or so years and I believe that most were refitted ground-up, in good style, and with the consent of the FA (John Martin in most cases, IIRC)... Were the bolts required? Perhaps not in some cases... KHW has a couple of questionable bolts, IMO, but not too many people have a problem with retrobolting climbs with the consent of the FA, myself included - this is usually not what the argument is about. The problem lies more with "renegade" retrobolting that flies in the face of the FAs' ethic as well as that of the community. People in the Bow Valley are pretty easy going when it comes to adding bolts to climbs - especially belays (anyone who wants to add a rap station to the top of "Conclusion" - an ice route that we put up earlier this year has my consent, by the way - I don't want anyone to have to belay in the manner that I had to, but I would certainly prefer that no bolts be placed on the climb itself, even though it has a solid R rating... I believe that if the climb wished to present us with more protection then it will someday). In any case, I think what most object to - to reiterate - is people saying that they're a gonna' head on up to the crag with a drill - damn the locals, damn the consequences. I believe that you recently made comments the effect that you would - if presented the opportunity - do the same to Wicked Gravity. Don't you think that this would damage the character of this classic? And do you really think that there aren't enough overbolted 11a's at the Back of the Lake for you to climb? Last point: quite a lot of the people climbing Yam, Kid Goat, EEOR, and such do so as "practice" for more remote alpine climbs where runouts are unavaoidable. Having frightening climbs to do a little closer to home helps develop a feel for placing hard-fought protection and, when required, just climbing on. I'm no opponent of safe climbs, but I certainly see a place for those that require a little perspective.
Cheers,
BC
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ksolem
Jul 1, 2003, 10:01 PM
Post #42 of 49
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"Trad is not an option on these particular climbs"? Do you mean placing gear is not an option? A trad route can be bolted. The bolts are placed on lead (some would add from stances without aid.)
Anyone who adds "chicken bolts" to an established climb is a vandal and should be ostracized from the climbing community. If the runouts scare you either suck it up or find something else to do.
Tell your friend if he wants to be mocked, villified and despised, go ahead with his lame plan.
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Cragulator
Jun 13, 2007, 3:45 AM
Post #43 of 49
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Yam is being grid bolted. Not only are virtually all new routes bolted heavily but all the old classics see the addition of new bolts every year, placed by supposed hardmen to protect lesser climbers from them selves. There is little if any trad ethis left and it spills out all over the Bow corridor. The excuses range from: I'm just beefing up the belay!! to "no one could ever climb this route if I hadn't put the bolts in." Tell that to Peter Croft when he showed up on a winters day and freed Yellow edge.
Someone ought to hog tie the bolt maniac. Take a rest dude.
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boku
Jun 13, 2007, 11:22 PM
Post #44 of 49
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Are there any other four-year-dead threads you'd like to exhume? Might as well get it over with.
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Cragulator
Jun 15, 2007, 4:03 AM
Post #45 of 49
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Wow, Wish I'd said that. "Vandals" is a good word for it.
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boltdagunks
Jun 15, 2007, 12:15 PM
Post #46 of 49
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boku wrote: Are there any other four-year-dead threads you'd like to exhume? Might as well get it over with.
(This post was edited by boltdagunks on Jun 15, 2007, 12:17 PM)
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hillbilly
Jun 15, 2007, 7:57 PM
Post #47 of 49
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Howdy TIA, how about climb more with your nervous friend. Show him how to climb in a confident and safe manner. Teach him to trust his gear, belayer, and self. I have run into many such climbers, who have cursed be for not placing more psychological bolts on my routes. I have occasionally added bolts in response to their fears, but feel part of climbing and life is quieting the doubt and fear that keeps us from challenging ourtselves and attempting harder things. I often joke, " you have to earn that bolt".
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hosh
Jun 15, 2007, 8:16 PM
Post #48 of 49
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Want to stop him from retrobolting? Slash his tires. then punch him in the face. Pull a black bag over his head and tie him up with duct tape and throw him in the trunk of your car. Drive around the neighborhood for an hour and a half, dump him in the woods after arranging another climber to pick him up, beat him with a cane for a while, then tell him that there's more where that came if he bolts the area. Flash him your shank and tell him that he's being watched
hosh.
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bob_54b
Jun 15, 2007, 8:40 PM
Post #49 of 49
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if he just wanted to replace the old 1/4" bolts and that's it, that would be a service, but to go and put in a lot of bolts where the first ascent parties didn't place them, i think that really violates the spirit of the first ascensionists.
I suppose if he found those guys and asked them if he could sew those routes up with more bolts, and they said okay, then maybe that's fine, but just to go out and do it because he imagines himself as the final judge is pretty pretentious at the least.
To go out and retrobolt on your own volition is really disrespectful to the people who did the first ascent. It also takes away the sense of adventure on a route for future young guys who might be seeking to test themselves on that sort of thing. You're taking an opportunity away from future youth to experience that sort of thrill. It's similar to chipping holds: you're taking the opportunity for adventure away from the future when you alter the stone, just so you can bring it down to your level.
I would say, if you can't cut the mustard on that stuff, go somewhere else and leave it alone until you can do it on it's terms.
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