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c-money


Jun 27, 2007, 10:39 PM
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Re: [jt512] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
cracklover wrote:
c-money wrote:
Most professional instructors phased out the "pinch-and-slide" method a long time ago...

Please provide some documentation for that. So far as I'm aware, the pinch-and-slide method is still considered safe, and should be taught, especially for lead belaying.

No, the pinch-anbd-slide should not be taught! While it is still considered safe as a method of belaying for the experienced, it should not be taught.

The pinch-and-slide method has been taught to many thousands of belayers who have never dropped anybody. Used properly, the method is safe, and actually has advantages over your so-called more modern methods.

You are absolutely right with these couple of points. However, there are several disadvantages that you seem to be ignoring.

I can think of no disadvantage to the pinch-and-slide method, once the belayer is proficient with it (if you can, please state them explicitly). The same cannot be said of so-called newer methods. Newer methods sacrifice flexibility and speed for security, a trade-off that is not required with the pinch-and-slide method when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice.

Jay

With your disclaimer "when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice" you could make a case for any belay method...

In my experience, with practice and sufficient instruction, other methods can be just as flexible, fast, and add more security than the pinch-and-slide, once the belayer is proficient with it.

I think you have raised some good points, and while I don't agree with you on everything, debating the finer points here is a waste of both our time. I know that trying to convince you of anything other than what you have already stated is a waste of my time ;)


jt512


Jun 27, 2007, 10:44 PM
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Re: [c-money] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
cracklover wrote:
c-money wrote:
Most professional instructors phased out the "pinch-and-slide" method a long time ago...

Please provide some documentation for that. So far as I'm aware, the pinch-and-slide method is still considered safe, and should be taught, especially for lead belaying.

No, the pinch-anbd-slide should not be taught! While it is still considered safe as a method of belaying for the experienced, it should not be taught.

The pinch-and-slide method has been taught to many thousands of belayers who have never dropped anybody. Used properly, the method is safe, and actually has advantages over your so-called more modern methods.

You are absolutely right with these couple of points. However, there are several disadvantages that you seem to be ignoring.

I can think of no disadvantage to the pinch-and-slide method, once the belayer is proficient with it (if you can, please state them explicitly). The same cannot be said of so-called newer methods. Newer methods sacrifice flexibility and speed for security, a trade-off that is not required with the pinch-and-slide method when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice.

Jay

With your disclaimer "when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice" you could make a case for any belay method...

In my experience, with practice and sufficient instruction, other methods can be just as flexible, fast, and add more security than the pinch-and-slide, once the belayer is proficient with it.

Really? I doubt it that in your experience that that is the case. Rather, I think that you are merely parroting what I wrote.

Jay


healyje


Jun 27, 2007, 11:19 PM
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Re: [jt512] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
If by "thing" you mean "fantasy" then I agree with you.

Jay

Given I'm well past three decades into it and still putting up onsight, groundup trad routes I'll stick with and continue enjoying my 'fantasy'. BTW, I'm curious, what happens if you're lowering with two hands and you get stung in the crotch? Do you still hold on or is that sufficient grounds to drop someone. Or is that simply covered by the grigri absolving you of any personal reliability? Again, just curious...


jt512


Jun 27, 2007, 11:35 PM
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Re: [healyje] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If by "thing" you mean "fantasy" then I agree with you.

Jay

Given I'm well past three decades into it and still putting up onsight, groundup trad routes I'll stick with and continue enjoying my 'fantasy'. BTW, I'm curious, what happens if you're lowering with two hands and you get stung in the crotch? Do you still hold on or is that sufficient grounds to drop someone. Or is that simply covered by the grigri absolving you of any personal reliability? Again, just curious...

Your position on this subject is indefensible; and neither have you had, nor will you have, any shred of support for your position. With this last tirade you have pretty much lost any last semblance of credibility you may have had on this site, or, for that matter, in the world of rock climbing at large. Congratulations, you have managed to singlehandedly render yourself completely and utterly irrelevant.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 27, 2007, 11:37 PM)


c-money


Jun 27, 2007, 11:53 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Well, c-money, I don't read the rags regularly, but the only article I've seen that argued against the pinch-and-slide method was one in either Rock and Ice or Climbing that came out a year or two ago, and which touted a multi-stage belaying method so stupid and convoluted that it was ridiculed soundly on every climbing site I know of. If you wrote that article, I'm sorry. Perhaps you're trying to feel better about yourself now?
So did you try this method? If we are thinking of the same article, it is pretty easy and has been widely taught for years. I am surprised that you were not able to adapt to it.
The article was not mine. As far as I recall (I can't be bothered to look it up and could be totally wrong), that was written by a professional guide on behalf of one of the American certifying bodies. But hey, what do they know, right? Best to go with whatever they are saying online...;)

cracklover wrote:
As for letters to the editor, unless they were from some reputable source on safety, they don't mean any more than what you or I think. I.E. - squat.
Fair enough.

cracklover wrote:
c-money wrote:
While I can't forward you any documentation (I don't know if any exists), this style of belaying has been largely phased out by the major North American instructional outfits (the ACMG, the AMGA (as far as I know), and the gyms with certified staff) for use with modern belay devices.

Uh huh. There's been a sea-change. Guides have written in to the mags repeatedly, the ACMG and the AMGA have both changed their policies, and yet you can't find any proof of any of this? I'm sorry, but I'm calling BS.
So which certifying body actually endorses the old munter-hitch, pinch-and-slide as a method for teaching to beginner top-ropers? Can you name one? (Hint: think of a very low number.)
Ever think about why these bodies do not post How-To's online? I am not going to take and post photos of the appropriate pages in the manuals for your benefit here. If you are really interested, see one of the certifying bodies directly.

cracklover wrote:
c-money wrote:
While the pinch-and-slide may be considered safe for those with experience (it is how I learned to belay), it is not the best method to teach. You mention one of its cons earlier:
cracklover wrote:
if you use the pinch and slide method (which is what I have taught) there definitely is a transition to make between locked off and lowering, and a brand new belayer may need to be coached through this transition several times before it starts to come naturally.
Modern methods have smoothed this transition, making it more natural.

I disagree. I'm familiar with one other method of belaying using a friction device, in which the hands are mostly in the locked off position. This method simply trades one down side for another. The down side to this method is, of course, that you cannot feed out or take in slack to a leader as smoothly and quickly. In other words, it frankly sucks for belaying a leader if you have your hands locked off all the time. The pinch and slide is only "inferior" if all you're using it for is toproping, otherwise it is vastly superior. In fact, the methods that have you pulling slack through with both hands on the brake strand are also terrible when there's significant friction in the system. At such times, you *need* to pull the "live" end of the rope. And that means pinch and slide.
So you disagree with your own point? And I thought we were talking about top-roping.

cracklover wrote:
And if you teach the pinch and slide using the method where the belay is palm down and never pinch both strands with the same hand, it is very safe for new climbers learning the slingshot belay. You'll actually see that with palm down, belayers pretty much always gravitate to dropping their brake hand into the brake position by default, as it's a more natural position. Then, it's an easy transition to learn the palm up version later.

What you have described (with the palm down, dropping the brake hand into brake position) is not the pinch-and-slide. To me, "pinch-and-slide" refers to a munter-hitch style belay: palms up, pinching both strands with the lead or guide hand above the belay device while sliding the brake hand back into position. Maybe this disagreement is based on a confusion of terms... As I recall (and I can not be bothered to look it up and could be totally wrong), what you have described sounds very familiar to the belay method from the magazine article you slagged earlier...

cracklover wrote:
c-money wrote:
Probably the largest downside of the pinch and slide with a current device is the fact that the belayers hand motions are almost all above the device in an unlocked position. Teaching a new belayer to belay in a way that keeps their hands OUT of the brake position is clearly not a good idea, something newer techniques have addressed.

I strongly disagree with some of your statements, and especially with your conclusion, for reasons explained above. And I'm still waiting to hear about how pinch and slide has been "abandoned" in exchange for "newer techniques" in the US.

So you feel strongly that teaching a new belayer to belay in a style that keeps their hands out of the brake position is a good idea?

I think that "pinch-and-slide" means slightly different things to us. You have actually described some of the "newer" techniques I have been refering to that improve upon what I consider to be the old "pinch-and-slide" method. I think that in the end, we are actually talking about similar methods by different names (or should that be different methods by the same name).


c-money


Jun 27, 2007, 11:55 PM
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Re: [jt512] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
cracklover wrote:
c-money wrote:
Most professional instructors phased out the "pinch-and-slide" method a long time ago...

Please provide some documentation for that. So far as I'm aware, the pinch-and-slide method is still considered safe, and should be taught, especially for lead belaying.

No, the pinch-anbd-slide should not be taught! While it is still considered safe as a method of belaying for the experienced, it should not be taught.

The pinch-and-slide method has been taught to many thousands of belayers who have never dropped anybody. Used properly, the method is safe, and actually has advantages over your so-called more modern methods.

You are absolutely right with these couple of points. However, there are several disadvantages that you seem to be ignoring.

I can think of no disadvantage to the pinch-and-slide method, once the belayer is proficient with it (if you can, please state them explicitly). The same cannot be said of so-called newer methods. Newer methods sacrifice flexibility and speed for security, a trade-off that is not required with the pinch-and-slide method when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice.

Jay

With your disclaimer "when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice" you could make a case for any belay method...

In my experience, with practice and sufficient instruction, other methods can be just as flexible, fast, and add more security than the pinch-and-slide, once the belayer is proficient with it.

Really?

Really.


c-money


Jun 28, 2007, 12:05 AM
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Re: [wanderlustmd] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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wanderlustmd wrote:
C-Money: Fair enough, I don't 100% agree with your point, but I can see the rational behind it. I may very well learn a newer method for comparision. The fact that most of the movement is above the brake position is a negative. Also, like Gabe mentioned, there is a tranision from brake to lowering, something I should have addressed to a greater degree. I doubt I'll change my approach, thought, as the pinch-slide works fine for me.

I don't think that the method taught was the biggest issue, just one factor that may have contributed that may be worth considering. And of course, the term "pinch-and-slide" may mean slightly different things to us....

In any case, good luck...


jt512


Jun 28, 2007, 12:46 AM
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Re: [c-money] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
jt512 wrote:
c-money wrote:
cracklover wrote:
c-money wrote:
Most professional instructors phased out the "pinch-and-slide" method a long time ago...

Please provide some documentation for that. So far as I'm aware, the pinch-and-slide method is still considered safe, and should be taught, especially for lead belaying.

No, the pinch-anbd-slide should not be taught! While it is still considered safe as a method of belaying for the experienced, it should not be taught.

The pinch-and-slide method has been taught to many thousands of belayers who have never dropped anybody. Used properly, the method is safe, and actually has advantages over your so-called more modern methods.

You are absolutely right with these couple of points. However, there are several disadvantages that you seem to be ignoring.

I can think of no disadvantage to the pinch-and-slide method, once the belayer is proficient with it (if you can, please state them explicitly). The same cannot be said of so-called newer methods. Newer methods sacrifice flexibility and speed for security, a trade-off that is not required with the pinch-and-slide method when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice.

Jay

With your disclaimer "when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice" you could make a case for any belay method...

In my experience, with practice and sufficient instruction, other methods can be just as flexible, fast, and add more security than the pinch-and-slide, once the belayer is proficient with it.

Really?

Really.

Well, I "really" don't think you have much experience, as evidenced by your reliance on what guide organizations profess.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 28, 2007, 12:47 AM)


healyje


Jun 28, 2007, 1:22 AM
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Re: [jt512] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If by "thing" you mean "fantasy" then I agree with you.

Jay

Given I'm well past three decades into it and still putting up onsight, groundup trad routes I'll stick with and continue enjoying my 'fantasy'. BTW, I'm curious, what happens if you're lowering with two hands and you get stung in the crotch? Do you still hold on or is that sufficient grounds to drop someone. Or is that simply covered by the grigri absolving you of any personal reliability? Again, just curious...

Your position on this subject is indefensible; and neither have you had, nor will you have, any shred of support for your position. With this last tirade you have pretty much lost any last semblance of credibility you may have had on this site, or, for that matter, in the world of rock climbing at large. Congratulations, you have managed to singlehandedly render yourself completely and utterly irrelevant.

Jay

Backatchya Jay, at this point you've been clipping bolts so long you've forgotten what it's all about, how it all works, and what personal responsibility and reliability are all about. No amount of 'new' and 'improved' technique is a substitute for either. But again, like assuming and managing risk, these are clearly outdated concepts in the risk-free, entertainment-oriented world of climbing you inhabit.


bbirtle


Jun 28, 2007, 1:32 AM
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Re: [healyje] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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Internet fight! Internet fight!

Did we all agree then that you should always have two hands on the rope while lowering?

Like literally the DAY AFTER reading this thread I was being lowered by a new person and I yelled at them to stop - she was lowering me "hand over hand" - where left hand lowers a little, right hand goes on rope under, left hand OFF the rope, under right hand, etc. At first she was proud and standoffish and refused to stop lowering me, so it took a bit of wild hand waving and yelling before she stopped and started listening to me. I had just met her and she was embarrassed and pissed off over the whole thing. "Sorry to make a big deal out of that... I said, but I just read about an accident so I'm a bit nervous these days," I said on the ground. "But it's the way I've been taught, I think it's fine," she says "no I'm sorry but it's not," I said "you need to have both hands on the rope while lowering."

So far I feel justified - while the "one handed method" raises my eyebrows, the "hand over hand" method just makes me freak out every time I see it.


overlord


Jun 28, 2007, 1:58 AM
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Re: [healyje] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I also think I understand what would likely happen if something along the lines of a bee sting on the belayer's only brake hand were to happen.

Well, there you go; I am admittedly old school with regards to belaying and if you're the sort that can't belay [one-handed] through a bee sting, a cloud of bee stings, or anything short of being hit by a rock rendering you dead or unconscious then I definitely don't want you belaying me. Again, it must be an old school thing.

i wouldnt be worried about bee stings, but i would definitely be worried about a kink in a rope forcing the belayers hand open and subsequently causing loss of control.

the second hand is there for redundancy. i always lower with two hands on the brake end when using a non-locking device. the left is about 4in below the device and not moving and i feed the rope with my right.


healyje


Jun 28, 2007, 3:32 AM
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Re: [overlord] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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overlord wrote:
healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I also think I understand what would likely happen if something along the lines of a bee sting on the belayer's only brake hand were to happen.

Well, there you go; I am admittedly old school with regards to belaying and if you're the sort that can't belay [one-handed] through a bee sting, a cloud of bee stings, or anything short of being hit by a rock rendering you dead or unconscious then I definitely don't want you belaying me. Again, it must be an old school thing.

i wouldnt be worried about bee stings, but i would definitely be worried about a kink in a rope forcing the belayers hand open and subsequently causing loss of control.

the second hand is there for redundancy. i always lower with two hands on the brake end when using a non-locking device. the left is about 4in below the device and not moving and i feed the rope with my right.

First it was fatal bee plunges, now we're talking kink-assisted manslaughter. What pray tell happens if a dreaded 'snarl' or the almost always deadly 'knot' happens upstream of your hands? Do you take a hand off the rope and risk killing your partner or what?

In general all this comes under the broad heading of 'rope management'. Again, by this exact ridiculous logic it is clearly improper and downright dangerous to rappel without both hands below the device. Exactly how is it different? True competency, common sense, and personal reliability are clearly getting to be a scare commodities and this is another case where it was put well in a movie - 'Don't know about this new crew of yours. They seem a bit skittish...'

God only knows how us old guys survived the '70s. Or how we could have held endless big and hard falls on multipitch routes belaying with nothing more than a single non-locking biner - egads. We are clearly dead men climbing...


notapplicable


Jun 28, 2007, 5:50 AM
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Nice COR reference and although I agree with you on many points I think this whole thing (as it often does) has reduced to holding positions that are at the extremes of what is normal and acceptable.

Its not realistic for it to be one or the other. In order to belay safely a person has to be able and willing to remove a hand from the brake side to stabilize themselves, facilitate movement, untangle the rope, wipe the dirt out of there eyes that the climber just kick down on them, etc... But on the flipside when possible it is safer and easier to default to two hands while lowering. Doing so provides for greater control over the rope and reduces friction on the brake hand.

Belaying is a dynamic exercise and the belayer needs to stay flexible in there technique in order to do the job efficiently and safely.


reno


Jun 28, 2007, 6:24 AM
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healyje wrote:
Or if you were simply referring to the two-hand thing - get a grip (literally) - if you need two hands to lower someone safely you have some sort of basic deficit relative to understanding how belay devices work.

Or you could have an injury that prevents you from being able to use the belay device as well as you'd like, and thus a second hand is simply an added insurance policy.

In reply to:
There is no particular harm, though there are situations and stances where one hand is likely what you'll have to work with.

I agree that there are situations where you get one hand, and one hand only. It's less than ideal, yet not quite as terribly deadly as others have made it out to be. On the other hand (no pun intended,) using two hands really has very few drawbacks for many, many climbs. And, in the gym, it has no drawbacks that I can discern.


billl7


Jun 28, 2007, 6:25 AM
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jt512 wrote:
With this last tirade you have pretty much lost any last semblance of credibility you may have had on this site, or, for that matter, in the world of rock climbing at large. Congratulations, you have managed to singlehandedly render yourself completely and utterly irrelevant.
Why are you cloaking your position as being everyones when clearly it is not?


Partner taino


Jun 28, 2007, 6:27 AM
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slablizard wrote:
patto wrote:
Slablizard your an idiot and a troll for posting that gri-gri picture. Gri-Gri as MORE dangerouse for lowering because they only allow one brake hand.

Personally I believe that when lowering with a tube TWO hands should always be on the brake side. (If you have gloves the 1 should be acceptable) Whatsmore if you at all unsure about lowering you should do hand over hand. This also wears out your hands less.

By the sound of it your belayer only had one hand on the rope, there in lies the problem.

When abseiling I ALWAYS do hand over hand but that is probably because I have a low friction device.

Hey PATTO

Cool down will ya kid?

If you don't klnow how to belay and you let go of the rope, like it happened here, the GG locks the rope for you. It's VERY HARD to mess up lowering someone on TR with a GG, genearlly beginners would lower you very slowly or jerking you all the way down...unless you find the ultimate idiot that just pulls the lever all the way down.

If you loose your rope with an ATC instead your climber drops to the deck period.

patto wrote:

Gri-Gri as MORE dangerouse for lowering because they only allow one brake hand.

That's BS, ATCs and other belay devices have ben used for much longer than the GG, therefore obviously they have to have a longer accident list.

Nothing beats the safety of a GG, since without user action it locks the rope by itself.

Wrong. Gri-gris don't automatically lock. If you let go completely, there is a chance that the gri-gri will NOT lock up on the rope. Gri-gris work through friction; if there's not enough friction, the gri-gri will not activate.

Lowering someone with a gri-gri, too, isn't necessarily as safe. People FREQUENTLY open the gate on the gri-gri before the climber sits back on the rope; this causes the rope to run quite suddenly through the device - when it's being held WIDE OPEN. The belayer panics, and freezes - holding the gate wide open. It's happened to me, personally, three times.

A gri-gri, in the hands of someone who knows its limitations, is an excellent tool. In the hands of a beginner, it's especially dangerous because everyone hears that gri-gris are foolproof. I never teach any client to belay with a gri-gri, first.

Regarding the whole "which way to belay" thing... the AMGA no longer teaches the pinch-pull-slide method. I personally know about 3-4 ways to belay, with either hand, including the pinch-pull-slide. However, the best way to belay isn't necessarily the way the AMGA teaches, although it's one of the safest; the best way to belay is the one that YOU can do in the dark, when you're hungry and tired, when you're cold and scared - and not screw it up. If that's the AMGA standard, great. If it's the pinch-pull-slide, and that's the one with which you're confident and comfortable, great. If it's a bloody hip belay or munter hitch, fine. The entire point of the exercise is to not drop the climber.

T


aarong


Jun 28, 2007, 7:11 AM
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Re: Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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On the original topic at hand...
If I interpreted this correctly, I think you asked this rhetorically...suggesting it is unusual? "How many people get dropped while being lowered on TR?" I'm not really sure how you meant it but thought I would comment:
Lots of people get dropped while being lowered. Out-of-control lowering, even if you don't hit the ground, is dangerous - especially outside where you are going over features that you can get tripped up on or bang into. I know no one is arguing that - but it's good to point out the importance of controlled lowering over speed-lowering. Once a belayer loses control it is nearly impossible for them to stop your fall - if that wall had been higher than 30 feet (say, 40 or 50) your fall would have been much worse. It is a belayer's innate reaction to let go of something when their hands are getting burned. So it should never get to a point of "too fast."

Most of us who have been in climbing for any length of time has introduced someone to the sport and/or taken a new climber climbing and had to be belayed by them. It's always a tricky situation. Several have mentioned having a backup - that's really the only way to ensure you are not going to get dropped. Another backup method that hasn't been mentioned yet but one that I use often with new belayers is that I hold either a) the rope as I'm being lowered or b) the holds I'm passing. In the event that someone starts to lower too quickly I can either grab the other side of the rope OR grab a hold and stop myself. Obviously, this method should ONLY be performed after a comprehensive training session on how to belay properly AND if you don't have someone on the ground who can provide a brake-hand backup. Another note, I think anchoring in a new belayer to the ground/floor (or wall or tree) is very important. It provides them a better sense of security - something that will hold them in place when they start to get tugged upwards. Especially in cases where the climber to belayer weight difference is high. Seasoned belayers should be allowed more discretion in anchoring - but for new belayers it should be a must. Anchor them close so that the floor (or wall) can bear more of the climber's weight. Just my opinion.


diophantus


Jun 28, 2007, 7:47 AM
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Re: [healyje] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
diophantus wrote:
healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
bent_gate wrote:
Are you sure that she didn't get her hand sucked in too close to the belay device, getting a sudden sharp pinch, and letting go before she realized it? With a surprise pinch, by the time you realize it and clamp back down, the rope is moving pretty fast.

I say again: Two hands on the brake side of the rope, and this incident would not have happened.

Jay
Jesus, is this what belaying has come to - lowest common denominator techniques? If that's serious advice, then what passes for belaying instruction these days is really shooting for the idiot compensation factor. Yet another good indicator many of the annual tidal flow of gym 'climbers' simply shouldn't be...

I've read plenty of stupid things on these forums. I'd like to say I'm surprised someone would believe this or agree with it but sadly I'm not.

Oh well, some of us are simply not pleased with the hordes of folks looking to climbing for just another risk-free entertainment. I would be more than happy if the popularity of the sport completely collapsed ala windsurfing in the 90's. That way maybe things like the via ferratas and the current wave of 'plaisir ("pleasure") climbing - where the swiss government pays for the retrobolting classics to provide access and work for guides - would never take root in the U.S.

Or if you were simply referring to the two-hand thing - get a grip (literally) - if you need two hands to lower someone safely you have some sort of basic deficit relative to understanding how belay devices work. There is no particular harm, though there are situations and stances where one hand is likely what you'll have to work with.

I've only been in one situation where I had to lower someone from a stance where I couldn't easily use two hands on the brake line. And that was just because I was being really lazy with the anchor I set, and the person wasn't capable of following the pitch. I don't rope climb much in the gym, but I've never found that the stances on a flat floor necessitate using only a single hand.

Also, I never said I, or anybody, needs two hands to safely lower someone, I was referring to your post where you claimed using two hands on the belay was not serious advice. Are you retarded?


diophantus


Jun 28, 2007, 7:58 AM
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Re: [healyje] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
112 wrote:
healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
bent_gate wrote:
Are you sure that she didn't get her hand sucked in too close to the belay device, getting a sudden sharp pinch, and letting go before she realized it? With a surprise pinch, by the time you realize it and clamp back down, the rope is moving pretty fast.

I say again: Two hands on the brake side of the rope, and this incident would not have happened.

Jay
Jesus, is this what belaying has come to - lowest common denominator techniques? If that's serious advice, then what passes for belaying instruction these days is really shooting for the idiot compensation factor. Yet another good indicator many of the annual tidal flow of gym 'climbers' simply shouldn't be...

Joseph,

Are you actually advocating that people should NOT put their 'free' hand onto the brake side of the rope while lowering? Sorry, but it sounds ignorant to me to imply that such a practice is 'idiot compensation'. I guess I am an idiot, because I thought it was stupid to NOT make use of the 'free' hand...

-Ken

I suppose by that same logic folks should be taught to rappel with both hands below the device...

I suppose by your logic tying knots in the ends of the rope (or the ends together) is a lowest common denominator technique too. I mean, Jesus, if that's what passes as safe rappelling instruction people are going to start rap bolting all the routes on el cap! Every pitch is going to be turned into a A0 bolt ladder and hordes of gym climbers with no experience are going to flock to the valley bolting plastics holds on midnight lightning and building starbucks at the base of every crag!!! Stop the insanity people, for the love of God, make it stop!!!!!


roy_hinkley_jr


Jun 28, 2007, 8:27 AM
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Re: [healyje] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Whenever this subject comes up there is always some old fuck who can't admit that there is a better way to lower than the way he was taught.

It isn't a better way. It's pretty much another one of many practices taught by those commercially vested in teaching climbing with the attending liability issues to mitigate. Again, it does no particular harm, but to teach people that it's HOW to lower someone - stupid.

Yep. This is the same thing as requiring to tie in with a figure 8 and then adding a double overhand backup. Completely unnecessary safety nazi mandates. I'd trust healyje to belay me any day and wouldn't let jt512 anywhere near my rope.


zeke_sf


Jun 28, 2007, 8:42 AM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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Several points upon reading this re-hash of a thoroughly hashed out topic:

Unless I were teaching people how to climb, why the fuck would I have somebody who I need a backup to watch them belay me? No.

Two hands on the brake side? I practice this on occasion, but one hand, thoroughly clamped down is enough. Palms up or palms down? If you think this is the absolute key to belaying, I suggest thumbs up and a vigorous motion. I will ask "what if" questions, but I refuse to enter the Majid-influenced, assume (aka hope for) complete catostrophe realm just yet.

Accusing somebody with 30 years and a presumably clean track record of being unable to belay? Priceless.


jt512


Jun 28, 2007, 9:26 AM
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Re: [healyje] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If by "thing" you mean "fantasy" then I agree with you.

Jay

Given I'm well past three decades into it and still putting up onsight, groundup trad routes I'll stick with and continue enjoying my 'fantasy'. BTW, I'm curious, what happens if you're lowering with two hands and you get stung in the crotch? Do you still hold on or is that sufficient grounds to drop someone. Or is that simply covered by the grigri absolving you of any personal reliability? Again, just curious...

Your position on this subject is indefensible; and neither have you had, nor will you have, any shred of support for your position. With this last tirade you have pretty much lost any last semblance of credibility you may have had on this site, or, for that matter, in the world of rock climbing at large. Congratulations, you have managed to singlehandedly render yourself completely and utterly irrelevant.

Jay

Backatchya Jay, at this point you've been clipping bolts so long you've forgotten what it's all about, how it all works, and what personal responsibility and reliability are all about. No amount of 'new' and 'improved' technique is a substitute for either.

What is irresponsible is not using two hands on the brake side of the rope when lowering your partner.

Jay


jt512


Jun 28, 2007, 9:29 AM
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Re: [zeke_sf] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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zeke_sf wrote:
Two hands on the brake side? I practice this on occasion, but one hand, thoroughly clamped down is enough.

I've always said that one function of rockclimging.com is to weed out potentially dangerous partners. Welcome to my list. The practice of lowering one-handed is indefensible. What useful function is the other hand performing?

That said, please explain how you can lower someone with "one hand, thoroughly clamped down" on the rope, since the rope has to slide through that hand. The fact that you can't "clamp down" with one hand is precisely why a second hand is important.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 28, 2007, 10:15 AM)


jt512


Jun 28, 2007, 9:33 AM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Whenever this subject comes up there is always some old fuck who can't admit that there is a better way to lower than the way he was taught.

It isn't a better way. It's pretty much another one of many practices taught by those commercially vested in teaching climbing with the attending liability issues to mitigate. Again, it does no particular harm, but to teach people that it's HOW to lower someone - stupid.

Yep. This is the same thing as requiring to tie in with a figure 8 and then adding a double overhand backup. Completely unnecessary safety nazi mandates. I'd trust healyje to belay me any day and wouldn't let jt512 anywhere near my rope.

This is an utterly unsurprising comment coming from you. Welcome to my list as well.

BTW, have you edited or deleted your post in which you unethically misquoted me yet, as Reno and I have each asked you to do?

Jay


overlord


Jun 28, 2007, 9:34 AM
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Re: [jt512] Dropped in the Gym (long post) [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
Two hands on the brake side? I practice this on occasion, but one hand, thoroughly clamped down is enough.

I've always said that one function of rockclimging.com is to weed out potentially dangerous partners. Welcome to my list. The practice of lowering one-handed is indefensible. What useful function is the other hand performing?

Jay

working the cellphone, waving to someone, jerking off... it could be performing a lot of usefull functionsWink

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