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ryan906
Jul 18, 2007, 12:22 AM
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I was climbing with a newbie who had just finished a belay class and when we started climbing I was trying to stress the fact that the belayer NEVER lets go of the rope. Well, this newbie is a very hypothetical person and started making situations were letting go of the rope might happen (ie. getting attacked by a bear, falling rock knocks belayer unconscious). This got me thinking, are there any tips/tricks people use to back-up the belayer? All I could think of was a 3rd person on back-up or I have heard of using a prusik but I believe this might be hard to use. Any thoughts?
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caughtinside
Jul 18, 2007, 12:25 AM
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the grigri.
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majid_sabet
Jul 18, 2007, 12:28 AM
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caughtinside wrote: the grigri.
what ?
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caughtinside
Jul 18, 2007, 12:33 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: caughtinside wrote: the grigri. what ?
THE GRIGRI.
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ryan906
Jul 18, 2007, 12:39 AM
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OK. I guess the point of my question was when using an ATC or something NOT a GriGri. ???
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jt512
Jul 18, 2007, 1:14 AM
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ryan906 wrote: OK. I guess the point of my question was when using an ATC or something NOT a GriGri. ???
The grigri was invented specifically for the purpose you mention.
Jay
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greenketch
Jul 18, 2007, 1:40 AM
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I think I would make an argument that 1) getting attacked by a bear does not mean you need to let go of the rope. And 2) in a rock fall climber and belayer should get to a "safe" situation and cover, then when the dust settles everyone checks in before you climb on.
It's easy to invent stuff but usually attention and good style will cover it.
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jt512
Jul 18, 2007, 1:47 AM
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greenketch wrote: I think I would make an argument that 1) getting attacked by a bear does not mean you need to let go of the rope.
yeah, riiiiiight.
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stefanohatari
Jul 18, 2007, 2:06 AM
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ryan906 wrote: I have heard of using a prusik but I believe this might be hard to use. Any thoughts?
Yes, we sometimes use a prussik below the belay device clipped into the leg loop, while lowering from a top belay. Not hard to use, but certainly an extra step. When being attacked by a bear, however, you would want to know how to escape the belay. And the bear.
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climbsomething
Jul 18, 2007, 2:08 AM
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caughtinside wrote: majid_sabet wrote: caughtinside wrote: the grigri. what ? THE GRIGRI.
Oh, and T1 
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petsfed
Jul 18, 2007, 2:18 AM
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caughtinside wrote: majid_sabet wrote: caughtinside wrote: the grigri. what ? THE GRIGRI.
I can only think of the thousands of real world conversations I've had where repetition was necessary on account of mumbling.
I'm laughing so hard I'm crying.
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el_layclimber
Jul 18, 2007, 2:32 AM
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I was once attacked by a bear while belaying with an atc. The really surprising part of this was that it was on the third pitch of Cochise Stronghold's classic 'The Wasteland' (5.8). Luckily, I was on a decent ledge, so I was able to fend him off with headbutts. Eventually the bear soloed up to a chicken head, ate my leader and then finished the route. I never let go of the rope though, with either hand.
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vector
Jul 18, 2007, 2:39 AM
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LOL at el_lay
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dan2see
Jul 18, 2007, 3:09 AM
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ryan906 wrote: ... hypothetical ... might happen ...
"Hypothetical" means it "might happen", and it's a common trick used by anybody, anywhere, with no experience.
"Experience" means it did happen.
I think the correct way to deal with a "what if" partner is to firmly order the guy on how to behave.
If he conforms to your real situation, you're both OK, and maybe you've got a good friend in the making.
But if he keeps up with the "yeah, buts" and stuff, then flake your rope back into its pack, and hike back home.
Looking for bears, or finding a tree branch that will scratch your eye out, or stepping on a poison berry, are excuses that can endure only for your first outing. Your friend can get real, or go home.
This assertive attitude is difficult for a lot of climbers I know, because we're so accepting of risk and personal choice. But a silly attitude doesn't work on the rocks.
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jt512
Jul 18, 2007, 3:38 AM
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dan2see wrote: But if he keeps up with the "yeah, buts" and stuff, then flake your rope back into its pack, and hike back home.
I was about to post something to that effect, but you beat me to it.
A belayer has to have the attitude that he won't let go with the brake hand no matter what. Sure, there are things that could happen (eg, getting struck by lightning) that could cause him to let go in spite of his best efforts; but if his focus is on excuses why he might let go, rather than on hanging on no matter what, then you'd probably be better off with another partner. I, for one, would not climb with him.
Jay
[Edit: The above notwithstanding, I just informed my girlfriend that if I am attacked by a bear while I am belaying her, she is on her own; and now I am in the doghouse.]
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 18, 2007, 3:58 AM)
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coastal_climber
Jul 18, 2007, 3:54 AM
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jt512 wrote: A belayer has to have the attitude that he won't let go with the brake hand no matter what. Sure, there are things that could happen (eg, getting struck by lightning) that could cause him to let go in spite of his best efforts; but if his focus is on excuses why he might let go, rather than on hanging on no matter what, then you'd probably be better off with another partner. I, for one, would not climb with him. Jay
Good Call. Sounds to me like your belayer needs to grow up a bit. If I am teaching someone a belay course where I work, and they are acting like that, I don't give them a ticket, because those people tend to goof off.
>Cam
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disturbingthepeace
Jul 18, 2007, 4:16 AM
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These hypothetical reasons are why I started belaying with a Gri Gri. Mainly getting knocked out by rockfall or the climber. While it hasn't happened I've been slammed into the rock hard enough and hit hard enough I decided to start using a Gri Gri. (And my girlfriend likes to project.)
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jt512
Jul 18, 2007, 4:45 AM
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disturbingthepeace wrote: I've been slammed into the rock hard enough and hit hard enough I decided to start using a Gri Gri.
Yeah, so have I. That it is possible to be an invincible belayer is a romantic myth among climbers (eg, the guy above probably really believes that he could maintain control of the belay while being mauled by a bear). The truth is that bad things can happen to good belayers. Be the best belayer you can possibly be and use a locking-assist device.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 18, 2007, 4:47 AM)
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coolcat83
Jul 18, 2007, 4:52 AM
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jt512 wrote: Jay [Edit: The above notwithstanding, I just informed my girlfriend that if I am attacked by a bear while I am belaying her, she is on her own; and now I am in the doghouse.]
Women want commitment, that means never letting go of the brake hand EVER, if the arm the bear just severed has the brake hand attatched to it, it better not let go or you'll wish the bear took something less painful like your head.
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Jblake
Jul 18, 2007, 4:52 AM
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This makes me think of an article I read recently where the author was on lead when he sent off a big rock and knocked his belayer (Harvey Carter) out cold only being well above he had no clue what was going on down below or if his belayer was ok/alive or dead. He fixed his rope and rapped to find his partner knocked out cold with hand still firmly clamped to the rope. Perhaps its the years of experience by Harvey but I think its more the firm understanding by the belayer that under no circumstances do you let go.
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jt512
Jul 18, 2007, 4:58 AM
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Jblake wrote: This makes me think of an article I read recently where the author was on lead when he sent off a big rock and knocked his belayer (Harvey Carter) out cold only being well above he had no clue what was going on down below or if his belayer was ok/alive or dead. He fixed his rope and rapped to find his partner knocked out cold with hand still firmly clamped to the rope. Perhaps its the years of experience by Harvey but I think its more the firm understanding by the belayer that under no circumstances do you let go.
Or maybe it's just not true. Come on, if you are knocked unconscious. you're not going to have control of the rope. This is part of the mythology I was referring to.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 18, 2007, 5:00 AM
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coolcat83 wrote: jt512 wrote: Jay [Edit: The above notwithstanding, I just informed my girlfriend that if I am attacked by a bear while I am belaying her, she is on her own; and now I am in the doghouse.] Women want commitment, that means never letting go of the brake hand EVER, if the arm the bear just severed has the brake hand attatched to it, it better not let go or you'll wish the bear took something less painful like your head.
My g/f just commended your insightfulness.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 18, 2007, 5:14 AM
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stymingersfink wrote: jt512 wrote: A belayer has to have the attitude that he won't let go with the brake hand no matter what. Sure, there are things that could happen (eg, getting struck by lightning) ... I seem to recall a story in ANAM from 2001 (2002?) about a team on a route on the Grand Teton that was struck by lightning, dude still didn't let go (or something to that effect).
That seems plausible. Skeletal muscles contract in response to electric shock. Then there's that rigor mortis thing. But neither of these phenomena is evidence favoring superhuman heroism by the belayer in the face of death. In contrast, skeletal muscles relax when you are knocked unconscious, which is why you collapse, and which is why I doubt that someone knocked out by rockfall is going to maintain control of the belay, no matter what his level of commitment, skill, or training.
Jay
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