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phil_nev
Oct 2, 2002, 2:19 AM
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I recently went on a climbing trip specificly to take some photos, i posted one on this site and the one person who voted for it gave it a 6... THIS IS NOT A SPIN FOR VOTES... Id just like to know what i'm doing wrong, any tips would be good.
Thanks, phil
Heres the photo.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=ListPhoto&PhotoID=7509
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the_elk
Oct 2, 2002, 2:33 AM
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Hi Phil,
It's not a bad shot... and I'd encourage you to keep on shooting... The idea is there, for sure, maybe work with this concept a bit more... keep on shooting, and don't just rate your ability on what others vote for. (personally I never even vote. I just look at all the pretty pictures.)
Cheers,
Elk
P.S. AUUURRGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
heard ya got Red X pink point flash!
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petsfed
Oct 2, 2002, 2:34 AM
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Your biggest problem? The print quality sucks! Having printed many myself, and having a photography major as a climbing partner, I got to be a pretty good judge of that. I have the same problem. I would suggest 1)using an aircompressor to blow off your negatives after they've completely dried, and 2)using photo-flo while the negatives are still wet to deal with those hard water spots (the grey dots that screw up your perfect black). Additionally I would burn in the lower portion of the rock, as well as the hand. Last but not least, I would go for much more parallel lines in the composition such that in your next submission, the leg is in line with the rock, which is in line with the bottom edge of the picture. The expression on the climber's face is very strong, almost as that of anger. I would really go with that theme and have lots of perpendicular lines (arm looks perp. to the leg and so forth) as well as perhaps having your subject look directly at the camera. Its a cool concept, and with a little refinement, I'm sure it will score better. As it stands now, it looks an awful lot like a picture one would take to remember the event, as opposed to immortalize every aspect of the moment.
PS: It looks like you tried to make the black blacker with photoshop, but it didn't turn out to well. Expose 10% more and see what happens.
[ This Message was edited by: petsfed on 2002-10-01 20:00 ]
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lox
Oct 2, 2002, 2:35 AM
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Grimacing on v2 is not impressive.
Your shoes are new.
The composition and contrast effectof that photograph are mediocre at best.
Your jawline suggests your family stopped evolving long ago.
I get more from reading the description than I do form looking at the photo.
You have chicken legs.
...
And you got a SIX ?!?!?
You should be thanking the peeps who thought highly enough of the photo to rate it an 8..
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phil_nev
Oct 2, 2002, 2:55 AM
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headcrak,
For starters i was just asking for some advice, not a f---ing insult! I like taking photos, never tried it before and just wanted some advice.
And since when is it a crime to have new shoes?????
As for V2 not being impresive, anything would seem hard after a full day of 5.11-5.12 climbing.
[ This Message was edited by: phil_nev on 2002-10-01 20:18 ]
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phil_nev
Oct 2, 2002, 2:57 AM
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Het petsfed and elk, thanks for the advice i will take it on board. I appreciate the help.
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tim
Oct 2, 2002, 3:05 AM
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phil,
you need to grow a thicker skin. only truly insane shots consistently stay above a 9.0 these days, after throwing out a lot of bogus people and their bogus votes.
take a few (dozen? hundred? thousand?) shots until you find one that captures something in your climbing that you are passionate about. if it really speaks to people, they'll vote it quite highly.
taking good pictures of people climbing is not hard. taking good 'climbing pictures' that fire the imagination of jaded bastards is very hard. even most of Greg Epperson's shots look rather ho-hum to me these days. but once in a while, someone will choose a new angle of view, or a fresh subject, or a different means of composing and framing the subject, and the result will be magic.
non illegitimi carborundum est... if you work to impress yourself (only) you'll be happier.
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jetace
Oct 2, 2002, 3:10 AM
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Careful guys, seems like recently someone got kicked off for either extreme criticism or foul language, or both, not sure, but anyway, just saying, be careful
climb on
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phil_nev
Oct 2, 2002, 3:11 AM
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thanks jabbeaux,
I dont really care if people like or disslike the photo, it's more of a question as to what i can do to improve. I was hoping for critisism, just not the sort headcrak gave. I have no time for people like him!
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petsfed
Oct 2, 2002, 3:17 AM
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I appreciate the thanks, but wow. That was harsh. *Whistles* But then, I'm used to abuse like what you got.
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lox
Oct 2, 2002, 3:19 AM
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Phil... way to not have time for me and reply with a HUGE response.
I was just giving you possible reasons why people voted the way that they did. In other words, I answered your question.
If you are the climber... then constructive criticism needs to be direceted at the photog.. if you are the photo, why do you care what I say about the climber ??!?
Jeeze, man... ask a simple question, get a simple answer, get bent.
And unless you flash into the hard 12s, step off about my climbing ability.
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phil_nev
Oct 2, 2002, 3:31 AM
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Id like to see some of your photos! Even some of you an a 12.
Although i am the climber i set up the camera for where i wanted the photo taken and got as freind to push the button.
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topher
Oct 2, 2002, 3:51 AM
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having taken many photo course in my dad, with an awsome teacher i would fully agree with the_elk, the angle is not bad, the focuse is good but but wasnt used to make add intrest to the subject, (mess around with depth of feild). but yes the big thing wrong with the photo is the print is realy dirty! the contrast, could be more promanatne, with black and white you usaly want a true black and a ture white, witch you never really achevied. it looks like you where posably using a flash because the top of the rock closest to the camera is really light, whitch is bad. the one last thing i would say is ( i know i said that the angle was ok) but there are so many photos taken from this view, try a diffrent perspective. you are on the right track, so dont give up. trus me Black and white is a pain to get good with, so keep shooting and dont jugde your self by the number given to your photo
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toprope_media
Oct 2, 2002, 12:43 PM
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1. I would work on the depth of field. I know you are climbing, but you could just as easly be standing on the deck and pretending to pull. With a greater depth of field, the enviroment places the subject in context and increases drama.
2. When working in photoshop, use the clone tool, not the delete tool, when cleaning up scans. When using the clone took, sample similar pixels and apply them in "spots" not long, continuous lines. This will prevent that artifical Photoshop look.
Used a feathed brush for this.
All in all, not bad for a first shot.
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cedk
Oct 2, 2002, 1:49 PM
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I vote 9 for that hat. I'm leaving one point for the possibility of a theoretical superior hat that I've never seen.
Anyway it looks like a good shot but don't worry about what people think of your photo's. Just climb and have fun.
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climbinganne
Oct 2, 2002, 2:01 PM
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...and ppl hated doosh for flaming...damn, the dude took a picture that he liked and posted it...jesus, you guys are a bunch of caddy bitches...
edit: sorry to group all of you in that...i think we know who i mean...
[ This Message was edited by: climbinganne on 2002-10-02 07:04 ]
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chadplusplus
Oct 2, 2002, 2:14 PM
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Dude,
My only suggestion is to take about 4,000 more pictures. I know it sucks, but that's what I do. I take about 50-60 pictures per trip (thank god for digital) and MIGHT get one good one. I'm just not photgraphically gifted and composition makes no sense until I get home and start moving things around in photoshop.
I guess after about 4,000 pictures, you'd get to know what makes for a good pic before you ever snap the shutter. I'm yet to be there though.
And what's up with the black airbrush anyway?
[ This Message was edited by: chadplusplus on 2002-10-02 07:15 ]
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mother_sheep
Oct 2, 2002, 2:25 PM
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I'm a photography layman, as you can tell by my shots but what I see in this picture is determination, stregnth and a guy bouldering. All of which make for a cool shot in my book. I like shots that are taken of boulderers from above. I guess the only thing I can see that may be flawed (in my opinion) is that the shot is a bit too dark. When I first looked at it, I thought your arm was reaching from under your leg to grab the hold. I like the shot. I give it an 8!
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tim
Oct 2, 2002, 2:42 PM
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ack, way to take the bait, kiddies.
if you really felt that the shot was strong, great, I'm happy for you. personally I didn't and the simple reason is that it didn't speak to me. however, good photos are 'art' and thus opinions will be subjective.
nonetheless, a ham-fisted retouching job, a somewhat static point of view, and blown-out highlights are technical flaws that I felt detracted from the photo's artistic merits, and distracted me as a viewer from the more subtle points. take lots of shots and edit them ruthlessly, is all I can suggest... the rest will follow inevitably. (not joking)
I'm unsure why phil got his panties so severely into a bunch when he got the criticism he was asking for, but if anyone is interested in my body of work (eg. my basis for making these suggestions), the link to my webpage is in my profile, and a handful of shots I took are on this site as well.
rc.com is not the optimal forum for photographic criticism. There are some real assheads here. (take me, for example... )
Someone posted about 'how to lead hard trad' recently and got a sarcastic response about 'read lots of books on it'. There is a rather obvious analogy here... you get better at things by doing them, a lot, and pushing yourself more each time. Take more pictures and the overall level of your photography (as seen by others) will increase -- as you edit, only the best stuff gets left behind, until eventually, you accumulate a pretty strong portfolio (or get tired of doing the work!). Some people get lucky and just snap a truly great shot, maybe several, but most great photographers have paid their dues.
nb. The most satisfying, and usually the hardest, person to impress is yourself. If you clear that hurdle, which usually takes a good deal of trying (though I've seen some people do it in their first few tries), normally others will follow. Even if they don't, consider whether you really give a damn about what other people think, and express yourself (photographically, verbally, artistically) accordingly. A good artist is normally his own harshest critic.
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-10-02 18:32 ]
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climbhigh23
Oct 2, 2002, 3:36 PM
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i think the picture is pretty damn good....better than anything i have ever shot (self proclaimed horrible photographer). as far as advice, keep on shooting pictures and posting them...and maybe use that camera to put a new "crak" is a certain persons "head"?
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kriso9tails
Oct 2, 2002, 4:15 PM
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Quote:I'm unsure why phil got his panties into a bunch when he got the criticism he was asking for
I don't think being a grading snob or calling down his shoes was constructive.
Grade has what to do with aesthetic appeal, and if older shoes promote a better look, it's better to find a way of saying that withouth implying (at least seemingly) that the climber is inexperienced. "Your jawline suggests your family stopped evolving long ago." More juvenile than constructive. And chicken legs? I'm surprised that some one who thought that worthwile to write was posessed of enough intellect to type that out themself.
I agree that the contrast could be better. Focus could also be sharper (although I'm not wearing my glasses). Shift the focal point up and left a little (well.. I think so). I'd say that the composition is pretty decent. Burn the hand in a little, and either burn the background out entirely or preferrably dodge it in if there's some useable data on the neg. On second though burning out the background entirely will screw with your dark shirt, but it's an option.
Some one said increse depth of field... that would put your background in focus, and I think would do well for this shot, but seeing as it was at night, I'm not sure that's practical. You just have to make sure that the background doesn't subtract anything from the focal point (face ?). If the climber were say 25 feet off the deck I don't think you'd want all of the background for essentiallt the same shot.
I've done much worse myself. Sometimes the conditions make it hard to reproduce the scene as well as you want to, and you just have to keep at it. Not bad though.
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phil_nev
Oct 2, 2002, 5:19 PM
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Thanks heaps for all the CONSTRUCTIVE advice, i really appreciate it. Who know, with 16000 more shots i may even impress headcrak?? But i doubt it. I eddited the photos using a dodgy old version of paint shop pro, i will have to get a hold of that photoshop program.
cedk, thanks for that compliment on the hat, i love it too and it barely ever leaves my head.
Also, as for the grimace on my face, i seem to do that regardless of wheter i'm on a 5.5 or 5.12. Dont ask me why, i just do it.
Thanks again for all the advice, and any more advice is always welcome.
Phil
[ This Message was edited by: phil_nev on 2002-10-02 10:23 ]
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mtnsprts
Oct 2, 2002, 5:31 PM
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Personally, I think the photo rocks...what more can you ask for?....it turned out well and it is a picture of you doing what you love to do. As for headcrak....lets keep the negative criticism to ourselves.
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mreardon
Oct 2, 2002, 6:43 PM
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Yo Phil, expect some harshness from this bulletin board. Most of the criticism will be constructive, but there will always be grading snobs who think that any photo under a certain grade shouldn't even be considered. What you find is that those who complain about the rating being easy in a photo, usually can't climb worth a damn anyways. Personally, after three climbing films (and overseeing a couple dozen theatrical releases that made millions), I've learned that those that scream the loudest are the ones who tend to not be able to put their own work out there. So you get a thick skin and keep doing what you want.
As to hopefully giving suggestions to getting better, or what may be wrong with your photo - here's my two cents:
What everyone is preaching about in taking more photos is true. On any given photo shoot, there tends to be 10 rolls shot with the hope of one good photo. It really is a 200:1 ratio. Mostly because climbing is not a static sport. It's really a matter of setting the parameters, then hoping you snap one at the right time. Do not count on photoshop to touch up the pictures. You have to start with a base shot. Either the shot is good, or it is not.
I'm a big fan of action shots in climbing. In yours specifically, I had two complaints, one, the angle of the shot didn't tell me what was causing you the grief your face showed. In the way it's presented, it looks like you're almost laying down. A slight tilt of the camera back would have shown a bit more of the angle (it doesn't have to be steep) and given a person more perspective. The second overall problem I had is that you are completely centered with no focus on one particular spot. I have a feeling that you wanted the hand to be the center point, but everything else makes your eye move away from that point with no reason to come back. Of minor point, the hand itself seems a bit out of focus as well.
All in all, not a bad one to submit, just keep shooting and find your style. You'll know when you get a good one.
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tim
Oct 3, 2002, 1:28 AM
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Quote:
Who know, with 16000 more shots i may even impress headcrak?? But i doubt it. I eddited the photos using a dodgy old version of paint shop pro, i will have to get a hold of that photoshop program.
Headcrak is not the person you need to worry about impressing; you are. If you think the picture is great, there are two reasons:
1) it speaks to you, or
2) you don't have a baseline to compare it to
My suspicion is that both are at play here.
Personally I think the contrast is nice, the lighting is creatively used, but on the other hand, there is less suggestion of motion, less decisive an expression, and less appropriate of a framing and viewpoint than would be optimal. Also, the fact that the climber (you?) is looking away, rather than at the camera, tends to reduce the emotional impact of the shot. It drains energy from the scene. Rules are made to be broken, and eye contact is not always a good thing, but I think in this shot it would help express the moment better. Also, a different perspective might have been good -- perhaps from the side, or off to the back, wherever. Buy some more Tri-X and experiment at your local choss pile at dusk... take more shots!
Forget 16,000 shots -- try blasting a few rolls or several dozen shots with a digicam, experimenting with different angles of view and different lighting, and see if you identify an appropriate way to express what you want to get across *before* you bring the raw material into photoshop/paintshop/etc.
I'm still trying to get a couple of climbing shots that capture everything that matters to me about exposure, exhilaration, beauty, and grace -- the things that I value in the climbs that I enjoy. I'm getting there. It's harder (for me) than environmental portraits, architecture, damn near anything else. But the bar has been raised over the years -- the pros are using pretty much the same equipment I do, they just hang it all out and take s--- loads of photos every month. Draw what conclusions you may...
I found the perfect angle last weekend for the shot I want of Crack of Dawn, let's see if I can pull off the framing and light now.
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-10-02 18:37 ]
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