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duckbuster_13
Jul 9, 2007, 5:34 AM
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ok so sport climb and boulder right now, but am interested in taking up ice climbing/dry tooling as well. For a variety of reasons, but primarily it just looks fun.
I found some good deals on used gear, and against better judgment just bought them outright. (i'm a gear whore).
Anyway. i got a pair of ice tools and two pairs of crampons ( the crampons are both the same model... they just came as a package) and am just curious what, if any limitations the gear will have for me as I get started, or if they'll be good beginners tools.
Lets suppose for the sake of argument that I'll be doing mostly dry tooling to start out. Are these decent items?
Thanks in advance.
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dcaldous
Jul 9, 2007, 6:53 AM
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Those crampons are hinged mountaineering style crampons. The secondary points are not aggressive at all which makes them more suited for snow travel than ice. The hinge on the crampons will make them very tiring to front point with and there will be no significant support from the secondary points. Those crampons are more suited for walking on snow fields than vertical ice or mixed climbing. You can probably get them to work on moderate ice if you strap them to really rigid boots but there are much better ice climbing crampons out there.
The ice tools will probably work for ice reasonably well. I would replace those leashes with something more comfortable if you plan to use them much. I don't know who made them and I wonder if finding a replacement pick for them might be hard or impossible if you break one. With the straight shaft you will be more prone to bashing your fingers against the rock. They will plunge more easily into hard snow. For dry tooling you could probably use them but it looks like you would have a terrible time trying to use them without the leashes. Keep in mind dry tooling will wear the picks quickly so if you can't find new ones after wearing though the picks you may be needing new tools. From the picture the tools look a little short. If they are reasonably light those tools look more like something I would use for technical mountaineering or alpine ice than for dry tooling.
Give the stuff a try but I think there are many better suited tools and crampons on the market for what you are thinking of doing.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 9, 2007, 2:28 PM
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Fantastic reply. That is exactly what I was looking for.
The tools are made by cassin and are 35cm.
I got a really good deal on them ,at least in my opinion... $90 for the pair? Would you consider that to be a good price?
The crampons seemed pretty good too... $27 for two pairs?
Obviously weather or not they're usable for my purposes has some bearing on their value, but I thought if nothing else I could resell them once it's not 100 degrees outside and when people are considering getting on the ice again.
Thanks again for the information, very cool.
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anykineclimb
Jul 9, 2007, 2:52 PM
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MY REI had Grivel X monsters for $80 each. great price for an inexpensive tool. good for both ice and drytooling.
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dcaldous
Jul 9, 2007, 3:51 PM
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Most technical ice tools are around 50 cm so at 35 cm you won't have the reach you would with longer tools. Tools of that length are more frequently carried as a third backup tool.
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unreleasedenergy
Jul 9, 2007, 6:03 PM
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well, some of the hardest routes all over the world have been put up with similar tools. its only been in the last decade that the current curved and leashless technology has been developed.
those should be fine to learn on.
the picks look like they need a tune-up realllll bad, learn how to sharpen and modify your picks.
you might be able to modify a currently made pick to fit your heads, looking at your tools i would suggest trying one of the BD picks as a possibility
ditch those leashes and get some new ones.
you'll learn good technique, they will force you too.
as for the crampons, if you don't have stiff soled mountaineering boots, and try to use those on hiking boots. you will be severely handicapped.
try putting them on your boots and balancing with the frontpoints on a stair or ledge.
try to find mountaineering boots that fit your feet. used is fine, just don't skimp and make sure they fit.
find a used pair of g-12's or saberteeth. both are basic all-around crampons that climb ice well.
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stymingersfink
Jul 10, 2007, 12:27 AM
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wait a minute... they have ice climbing in illinois? GTFO!
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duckbuster_13
Jul 10, 2007, 2:59 AM
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excellent advice as well... hmm... i've got some things to consider it seems.
I'll wait until my stuff arrives and then try to sort it all out.
My boots are northface chilkats. They're plenty ridgid, but i think they're more for snowshoeing and generally tromping around than mountaineering. They do have some sort of shank down the middle. They're probably altogether inadequate but they were what I was going to try them out on:
http://www.backcountry.com/store/TNF0310/The-North-Face-Chilkats-Winter-Boot-Mens.html?CMP_ID=SH_FRO001&CMP_SKU=TNF0310&mv_pc=r126&CP=Froogle&CMP=SPC-Froogle&ATT=TNF0310&GCID=C2000x025&keyword=TNF0310+chilkats+winter+boot+mens
I'm fairly handy with tools in the workshop. I'm not a fabricator, but I can retrofit and innovate things with a decent level of success. I'm allowed to use duct tape right? 
Are there any online resources for properly sharpening the picks? Any sharpening i'd do with current knowledge would be similar to using a bench grinder to sharpen a machete or old hatchet blade. basically the same idea?
thanks again for the advice.
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unreleasedenergy
Jul 10, 2007, 3:46 AM
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hmm. those boots aren't exactly what I meant by mountaineering... but, they might work well enough for you, just don't be surprised if your feet shear out of steep ice all the time. you'll need different boots for hybrid or automatic type crampons.
as for sharpening, never use any type of powertool unless you really really really know what your doing, they have a tendency to overheat the steel and ruin the temper of your picks. use a mill bastard file.
this site has a good primer on sharpening.
http://www.mscd.edu/...mbing/sharpening.htm
vince anderson's site has some good info
http://www.skywardmountaineering.com/tipsSharpen.html
as for retrofitting picks, if you have access to a mill, it would be relatively simple to copy the mounting holes and/or anti-turns from the stock picks to a new one. you can probably achieve usable results with a drill press, a selection of files and a grinder. i wouldn't worry about it until you break a pick, which could be relatively quick if you drytool with those. stick with ice/trees until you get the hang of it. then buy some sexy new tools/boots/poons and enjoy the benefits of technology. you'll feel like your cheating.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 10, 2007, 4:33 AM
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yeah, I think they were designed for mountaineering your way from the front door to the car in the winter. I've used them for the past few years for tromping around out in the woods in winter and they are great for that. I figure i'll give it a try anyway before i discount them outright.
anyway, thanks for the tips... but i think you just offered that opinion about using a power tool so you could use the word "bastard" in a sentence without feeling ashamed. No worries, I did the same thing with the preceding sentence.
Thanks again for the advice, much appreciated.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 19, 2007, 4:50 PM
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dcaldous wrote: I would replace those leashes with something more comfortable if you plan to use them much.
So I tried out my gear a little on a tree in the backyard.
Here is a question, how should the leashes function exactly? The one with the red leash seemed pretty comfortable and like I could essentially let go of the tool and immediately weight the leash, is that how it should be?
If i let go of the other one, it wouldn't weight the leash until my hand was well below the shaft of the tool.
I have no experience with how that is "supposed" to work. Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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dcaldous
Jul 19, 2007, 6:00 PM
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For ice climbing my understanding is that the leash is designed to help spread out the load so you don't have to grip as tightly and in some cases to allow the tool to dangle from your wrist while you place pro and so on. The leashes in the picture look more like mounaineering style leashes that are more to keep the tool from coming out of your hands if you try to self arrest.
The leashes I have used are the Black Diamond lockdown leashes and the petzl/charlet moser ones that come on the aztar tools. both tighten down on the wrist until an adjustable stopping point is reached they differ in the way they are designed to release and the charlet one has some more padding.
One thing that many leashes are designed to do is let the tool dangle with the spike up so it is nearer to your hand and it is easier to grab the handle when you are done placing gear.
The white leash looks like it is just a piece of 1 inch webbing that you should be able to adjust the length of by re-tying the knots.
If you plan on spending any significant amount of time hanging off of those tools I would also recommend purchasing some more modern leashes.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 19, 2007, 7:32 PM
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excellent. Thanks for the tips!
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duckbuster_13
Jul 20, 2007, 3:46 AM
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Yeah i noticed that too... my bad.... i really should've known better.
Thanks for the tips on both!
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rockguide
Jul 20, 2007, 12:20 PM
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Hate to spoil the party, but those are very generic ice tools and crampons. Yes you can climb with them and learn, but they will hold you back.
Yes I know hard route were put up with them. As a parallel example, lots of hard rock routes were put up with hexes, but modern cams help even more.
If they were cheap cheap cheap, all is good, but if you get into the drytoooling you will need to upgrade. Are there replacement pics? back in the day (don't quite know how old these were) pics broke often and I doubt you will find replacement pics.
Alpine snow and ice routes will be perfect for these tools.
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yousuck
Jul 20, 2007, 11:28 PM
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duckbuster_13 wrote: stymingersfink wrote: wait a minute... they have ice climbing in illinois? GTFO! OH... almost forgot. and No... we don't actually have ice climbing to my knowledge. At least not any that is widely discussed... But dammit I'm going to find some!
Yeah, there is... Up to 60' WI4+ in two different parts of the state.
PM me or something if you need more info.
(please pardon my username...)
(This post was edited by yousuck on Jul 21, 2007, 12:03 AM)
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chedontsurf
Aug 25, 2007, 7:44 AM
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I wouldn't even want to climb a staircase with the ice gear u got. The problem is, ice gear is crazy expensive and u live in Illinois. Not exactly Icefields Pkwy. u do have some waterfalls around that u should checkout. One is 60' and there are a few 50'ers. I don't know if they come in thick, or at all. u can find pics @ michelesworld.net under waterfalls by state. For that kind of ice, don't spend any more $ than u have to. When u decide to buy some good gear, wait till summer and shop online stores. They always have big overstock and closeout sales. I wouldn't waste my time on e'bay. If u find any ice to climb, just toprope it, so u don't have to invest in ice scews($40-70 per screw).
Hope this helps a little.
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oldmannavy
Aug 26, 2007, 2:36 PM
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Practice at home first. I started last winter found out this old man found out its harder than anticipated! I just bought some dry tooling holds from Woodys Holds I've climbed on them a few times they seem to work well. There is a hole in them to put your ax. I just screwed them up on the side of the garage.
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