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duckbuster_13
Jul 19, 2007, 8:14 PM
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This is a pretty interesting "article" from the military. It's really more of an overview of equipment necessary for combat in a mountainous environment.
https://atiam.train.army.mil/...1/fm/3-97.61/ch3.htm
I didn't read every word, but a preliminary scan basically reads as a beginners guide to mountaineering equipment. Kinda neat though. I think they should have a guide showing how to properly fire a rifle when halfway up an overhanging mixed route.
EDIT: I found the index to this manual, lots of great information here. Might be worth moving over to "beginners" since there is more than just mountaineering stuff here.
https://atiam.train.army.mil/...c/view/altfmt/6714-1
(This post was edited by duckbuster_13 on Jul 19, 2007, 8:34 PM)
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trebork2
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Jul 19, 2007, 9:16 PM
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Eh... wouldn't want to do any mountaineering with the Army. Old gear. Too heavy. Over used.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 19, 2007, 9:19 PM
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did you even look at the link? most of the images are of new publicly accessible gear. I'm pretty sure I spotted an Omega Jake in the biner pic... definitely showed bent shaft ice tools, and plastic boots too. What old gear are you talking about exactly?
(edited to remove leash-less tool reference, my mistake)
(This post was edited by duckbuster_13 on Jul 19, 2007, 9:25 PM)
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eddietheteddie
Jul 19, 2007, 9:23 PM
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The latest mountaineering manual has pictures of camalots and other modern pro in it.
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foeslts16
Jul 19, 2007, 9:30 PM
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yeah i have to admit that they seem to be moving forward in terms of equipment, but with that said, on my buddies 2nd tour of duty to Iraqi he was shipped out with a sidearm with one full clip, and an m16 with 7 (yes 7) bullets. He was told that they would probably find more supplies when they were in country. 2 days later he purchased an ak-47 which he used for the duration of his tour.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 19, 2007, 9:38 PM
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thats fucking insane. I love the "probably find more" when we get there.
Shameful.
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eddietheteddie
Jul 19, 2007, 9:41 PM
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everyone gets what they need there. Our guys were issued everything when they got there, the only came with personal gear. The army isn't there to screw people, if he had needed a weapon immediately they would have given him one.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 19, 2007, 9:54 PM
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eddietheteddie wrote: everyone gets what they need there. Our guys were issued everything when they got there, the only came with personal gear. The army isn't there to screw people, if he had needed a weapon immediately they would have given him one.
I'm not a "military guy", so forgive my ignorance... but if what you say is true, the fact they gave him a gun must mean he needed it. But he didn't "need" to shoot at more than about 17 people only once, or 1 person more than about 17 times? (Could be more or less depending on the side arm and it's capacity I suppose)
Either way, he apparently DIDN'T get what he needed if he had to get an AK-47.
Not trying to start a fight here, but at least to the uninitiated like myself (and apparently that dude's buddy with the 7 bullets) don't think the situation sounds all that kosher.
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eddietheteddie
Jul 19, 2007, 10:20 PM
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when your on a base you don't need a weapon, the guys in the towers will have them. When your on patrol you will have a weapon, and a full combat load of ammo. Anyone can buy weapons locally (they cant bring them back though) unless the base commander prohibits that. The OP can tell us more info about his friend, but sending guys over with very few rounds is common. Until they go out on missions why would they need tons of ammo. To further explain about when my unit went, they only got issued weapons when they got there. They had no weapons, no ammo, just personal gear. When they got off the planes they went to supply and drew weapons and ammo. BTW with the mountaineering again, in supply we have ice screws, several types of pitons, cam hooks, pulleys, skedcos, blue water ropes, biners. Cams, nuts, hexes, etc can all be ordered if we want them. But climbing doesn't have much application in the majority of the military, mainly rappelling. For those interested, the army runs a summer and winter mountain warfare course at Ethan Allen Firing Range up in Vermont. Im sure they have a website somewhere
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foeslts16
Jul 19, 2007, 10:31 PM
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what you're describing, sounds like an ideal situation. but that is not what my buddie experienced, he is due back from his 3rd tour soon so we will see.
In response to your statement that if he needed supplies he could or would have received them - is just plain wrong in this situation.
He is currently a Marine Corps Scout Sniper (like our own Richard Gilbert), and I don't know if that was his position in his 2nd tour, but it was pretty evident that he did not have the proper gear/equipment when he was in country.
(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Jul 19, 2007, 10:33 PM)
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reno
Jul 19, 2007, 11:46 PM
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duckbuster_13 wrote: I'm not a "military guy", so forgive my ignorance... but if what you say is true, the fact they gave him a gun must mean he needed it.
Not exactly.
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eddietheteddie
Jul 19, 2007, 11:57 PM
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The marine corp and the army are very different. Id be interested if any marines are on here and know if the they have a mountaineering program. btw good luck for your buddy.
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foeslts16
Jul 20, 2007, 1:58 AM
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eddietheteddie wrote: The marine corp and the army are very different. Id be interested if any marines are on here and know if the they have a mountaineering program. btw good luck for your buddy.
thanks, man.
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duckbuster_13
Jul 20, 2007, 3:44 AM
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All good info. Certainly there are exceptions to every rule, which I'm hoping was the case with the dude with only 7 rounds.
Either way, nice to know how things work. Thanks.
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crackers
Jul 20, 2007, 1:03 PM
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A lot of the units use Grivel...
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andypro
Jul 20, 2007, 9:27 PM
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eddietheteddie wrote: The marine corp and the army are very different. Id be interested if any marines are on here and know if the they have a mountaineering program. btw good luck for your buddy.
I was in the Marines ~10 years ago, and they do have a mountain unit. When I was there, we used all current modern climbing equipement, most of it being black diamond and metolius.
We had ~10 of each cam metolius made and some lowe balls.
We had BD nuts, biners, belay devices (ATC's), and harneses. I vaguely remember a camalot or three as well, but dont quote me on that.
Some OP stuff too, but not much relative to the others.
The snow gear was unmarked (that I could see) but it was typical snow axes, both strap and clip crampons hinged and rigid, ice screws, stakes...
I dont remember what kind of pins we had but it was a full complement, not the typical "military surplus" ones you find on ebay and in army/navy stores. Angles, blades, bugaboos, even rurps.
The typical military mountaineering and rapelling "manuals" that abound out there in stores and ebays and garage sales and stuff hadn't been updated since the 50's. The military doesn't dick around...at least the Marines didn't.
--Andy P
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shockabuku
Jul 20, 2007, 9:55 PM
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The Marines run a climbing school out in the Sierras. It sounded pretty decent from the limited accounts I've heard of it.
It may be that the Marine in question decided to purchase and carry an AK-47 at his own discretion because if he's a sniper, he doesn't have a weapon that's convenient to carry and useful for general use especially in an urban environment. Or maybe he just wanted to buy and carry around a different weapon for shits and grins. Being deployed isn't all that much fun. It's sometimes very exciting, but not much fun.
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MtnLdr
Jul 21, 2007, 12:57 AM
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You are lying!!! There is no way any American Military unit ( Army or Marines) would let one of their soldiers (or Marines) go into combat with an AK-47. Sounds cool, a great story to tell your buddies, but it's not reality. Before you raise the bullshit flag, ask yourself; would you go into a firefight carrying an enemy weapon, when the largest, most powerful military in the world, couldn't provide you with a U.S. issue firearm. You'd have to be a complete moron to accept that trade off. I really hope your friend comes home safe and sound, and if he doesn't want to die from friendly fire, tell him to lose the AK!
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majid_sabet
Jul 21, 2007, 1:18 AM
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MtnLdr wrote: You are lying!!! There is no way any American Military unit ( Army or Marines) would let one of their soldiers (or Marines) go into combat with an AK-47. Sounds cool, a great story to tell your buddies, but it's not reality. Before you raise the bullshit flag, ask yourself; would you go into a firefight carrying an enemy weapon, when the largest, most powerful military in the world, couldn't provide you with a U.S. issue firearm. You'd have to be a complete moron to accept that trade off. I really hope your friend comes home safe and sound, and if he doesn't want to die from friendly fire, tell him to lose the AK!
American gun is Ford, AK is Mercedes.
Ask any one if they want Merceds vs. Ford, they go for Benz.
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foeslts16
Jul 21, 2007, 2:03 AM
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MtnLdr wrote: You are lying!!! There is no way any American Military unit ( Army or Marines) would let one of their soldiers (or Marines) go into combat with an AK-47. Sounds cool, a great story to tell your buddies, but it's not reality. Before you raise the bullshit flag, ask yourself; would you go into a firefight carrying an enemy weapon, when the largest, most powerful military in the world, couldn't provide you with a U.S. issue firearm. You'd have to be a complete moron to accept that trade off. I really hope your friend comes home safe and sound, and if he doesn't want to die from friendly fire, tell him to lose the AK!
some of us don't need to make up shit to feel better about ourselves. my buddy is not one to bend the truth to make himself look better. if anything, he has been rather closed lipped about the shit that keeps him awake at night.
and by the way asshat, you'd best know me pretty well before you start calling me a lair.
If you knew shit about anything you would know how vastly superior the AK47 is over our modern m16 (based) rifles. ask yourself which is more prone to jamming, which has more penetrating power, which is more accurate, which one can you carry in the water/dirt without having to be rebuild.
(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Jul 21, 2007, 2:11 AM)
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MtnLdr
Jul 21, 2007, 2:33 AM
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I have been to Iraq three fucking times asshole, so .. if you want to compare stories... I'm all ears. If you weren't aware of this already, every MF that served over there (are you one of them by the way) stretched things out a bit, told stories, beefed up reality. I'm guilty of it too.
And, you're right, the AK-47 is far greater than the M-4/M-16 in the terms of duability and reliability, but when it comes to accuracy the M-16/M-4 blows the AK away. Your friend must know that. the difference is up to 300 meters when firing at a point target.
Now that we have that straight, give me your fucking address so I can get to know you before I call you a liar.
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MtnLdr
Jul 21, 2007, 2:45 AM
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To everyone else, I'm sorry for this display of misdirected manlyhood, but the facts just don't add up. This is a climbing website, and this is the wrong forum for discussing these issues.
With that said, come see me in the campground!
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foeslts16
Jul 21, 2007, 3:04 AM
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MtnLdr wrote: If you weren't aware of this already, every MF that served over there (are you one of them by the way) stretched things out a bit, told stories, beefed up reality. I'm guilty of it too..
well there's where you went wrong dumbass, not everyone has to make shit up.
you are probably right, i must have made all this shit up for the fortune and fame that it has brought on me, i am going to be on letterman tommorow.
o, and by the way, there was no chest thumping, this shit is by no means glamorous. you're the idiot who proclaimed "I BEEN THERE 3 TIMES."
and to answer your question, no I did not serve in the military. i come from a family that has served in the Armed Forces for 4 generations, so I know plenty about this shit, but have never claimed first hand knowledge.
(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Jul 21, 2007, 3:28 AM)
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MtnLdr
Jul 21, 2007, 5:25 AM
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"I didn't serve in the military, but my family did for four generations," SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!! That says to me that you have no Fucking idea (first hand) what goes on in a combat zone.
The fact that I have fought in Iraq on three seperate occasions only testifies to the fact that I might know what the fuck I'm talking about, and you might want to question your friend further.
I think he's bullshiting you! I've got pictures of me brandishing Iraqi weapons, Big fucking deal! Think about it Sherlock!? Is your friend Special Forces?
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foeslts16
Jul 21, 2007, 5:51 AM
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wow you read like a book,
no, the only thing that your exp proves is that you are quite the ignorant fuck. everything you have written so far screams of " look at me I am so cool i served in X number of missions" you are the exact kind of tard that I have heard so many stories about. "I am ARMY MAN ME TOUGH - If you have not served you know nothing." you are a first class idiot.
my final words, if my friend wishes to post his comments about his situation that is great. I will not speak for him. i stand by what i have said so far. anything else is mere speculation.
(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Jul 21, 2007, 6:42 AM)
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