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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 2:56 PM
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lodi5onu
Jul 27, 2007, 3:14 PM
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wow, that sounds like a nasty fall man...i haven't done much trad at all, but i've lead SSS and remember it took gear really well. due to the traffic the route gets, almost every hold is completely polished so i would suggest getting a lot more comfortable placing bomber gear on easier routes before you get on something like that again, especially if you know you might have to rest on a piece. it was probably the greasiest 5.8 i've ever been on. i hope you recover fast, mentally and physically!
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retr2327
Jul 27, 2007, 3:14 PM
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Cams usually work so well that they tend to inspire overconfidence (like Gri-Gris?). Slightly flaring and slightly polished = danger. I still remember an orange Metolius placement in a slightly flaring, slightly polished pocket that I would have sworn would be good; ten minutes of fiddling around, and it pulled out every time I yarded on it.
Ask yourself how much confidence you'd have if you were trying to smear on a polished face with metal soles -
Don't trust your life (or health) to one piece, no matter how good it looks, is a fairly good rule, although one frequently honored in the breach, but if it's a cam placement in slightly flaring and slightly polished pocket, watch out!
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 3:16 PM
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Sorry that you got hurt. hope you heal quickly. Tripple S is solid 5.9 so its no supprise that you got pumped. Its impossible to say exactly why a piece of gear fails without seeing the actual placement. That being said it sounds like you answered your own question. Flared, undercamed and pollished = splat. If you plan on hanging on gear make darn sure that its bomber and that the fall won't be bad if it blows. That means sew it up especialy if you are getting pumped. #3 sounds like near the top where the headjam is?
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reg
Jul 27, 2007, 3:17 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: I had a fall at Senceca Rocks last week and am trying to figure out what went wrong so I can not repeat the incident in my future trad leads. I was climbing the 5.8 route Triple S, about 60 feet up. I placed a #3 BD (blue) cam and went to rest on it. It wiggled so I replaced it, then tugged hard and it stayed put, so I took, easing slowly onto it. It held for a second, but next thing I know, I was free-falling. I know I should have backed it up (hindsight), but for the future - I am still unclear why it pulled. It was slightly undercammed, but not so much I could have used a #4. It might have been slightly polished, and only a bit, if at all, flaring. Anyone climb this route have any thoughts?? Or any other thoughts?? (I suffered 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung and a bruised liver. Not a good fall).
go back under ur bridge
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svilnit
Jul 27, 2007, 3:17 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: I had a fall at Senceca Rocks last week and am trying to figure out what went wrong so I can not repeat the incident in my future trad leads. I was climbing the 5.8 route Triple S, about 60 feet up. I placed a #3 BD (blue) cam and went to rest on it. It wiggled so I replaced it, then tugged hard and it stayed put, so I took, easing slowly onto it. It held for a second, but next thing I know, I was free-falling. I know I should have backed it up (hindsight), but for the future - I am still unclear why it pulled. It was slightly undercammed, but not so much I could have used a #4. It might have been slightly polished, and only a bit, if at all, flaring. Anyone climb this route have any thoughts?? Or any other thoughts?? (I suffered 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung and a bruised liver. Not a good fall).
Only thoughts are damn that must have hurt! Sorry to hear about your fall, I hope you heal soon!
Slightly flaring ok, slightly undercammed ok, slightly polished ok...
a + b + c = BAD BAD BAD
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nnowinowski
Jul 27, 2007, 3:19 PM
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Oh my god. Learn to place gear and climb within your limits. I'm sorry you got hurt but that is a simple climb with good gear. It takes better hexes than cams as the rock is slick and flaring. But -- there are good cam placements galore.
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shockabuku
Jul 27, 2007, 3:21 PM
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You say that you tugged on it; how? Slow, hard pull or sharp yank? I usually yank on my pieces a couple of times in a couple of different directions, starting with a little slack and giving a sharp yank on the runner. This gives it the opportunity to swivel a little and really let me know if it's in jeopardy.
I probably wouldn't have backed it up either.
Hope you heal well.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 3:25 PM
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If everyone climbed within their limits no one would get better. Nothing wrong with pushing your limits but you do need to sew it up when you get in trouble and NOT put your life on one piece.
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lodi5onu
Jul 27, 2007, 3:27 PM
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nnowinowski wrote: Oh my god. Learn to place gear and climb within your limits. I'm sorry you got hurt but that is a simple climb with good gear. It takes better hexes than cams as the rock is slick and flaring. But -- there are good cam placements galore.
my god man, give the guy a break, he probably just got out of the hospital and you're shitting on his face for falling on a climb. i guess you never had to sit on a piece when you started placing gear. i agree that the climbs not "difficult" by any means, good rests and takes lots of gear, but it's also not a gimme, especially for the 5.8 grade. i would like to know where cgalitsky was on the climb when he fell
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alex234
Jul 27, 2007, 3:31 PM
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first off i wish u a speedy recovery, secondly i usually try to avoid using cams in flaring cracks. its usually better to find a spot where the crack is no longer flaring or use a smaller cam deeper in the crack where it is not so flaring. also no other gear for 60 ft??? or at least 30 seeing u decked from the fall. it sounds like u ran out a climb with good pro where as if u had not u prolly wouldnt have decked. my advise would be to first not run out climbs with good pro/ not get on runout climbs with groundfall potential, back up placements that u think u might take a big fall on/are unsure of/or might deck if it blows with at least one other piece equalized with a sliding x although if one blows it will shockload the other but thats a different topic in its own, and finally lead stuff within your limit for some time till u are very proficient with gear placements.
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dbrayack
Jul 27, 2007, 3:35 PM
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The thing about Seneca is very rarely do you get parallel cracks...which is ideal for cams. Did you place it sticking directly out, or at a 45 degree angle?
I'm sorry about your fall and hope that you are back and kicking in no time.
A reply to a comment made earlier. Each one of my trad pieces tends to be a mission critical placement; if a piece were to blow, I'd likely sustain similar injuries...This may be bad, but its the way I climb.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 3:46 PM
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Yea drayback, that is bad. Trad gear is a system not just one piece. You can't allways back stuff up but depending on the liklyhood of a fall you need to have a system that accounts for failuer of a piece. If I am headding out on a move that i know has a high liklyhood of a fall then that gear is either backed up or the fall potentual will not be critical and the preceding piece will keep me alive. Allways think about what the system will do not just what this one piece wil do.
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nnowinowski
Jul 27, 2007, 3:48 PM
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climbing withing your limits doesn't mean that you aren't falling or pushing yourself. It means climbing at a level where you can protect yourself either through technique or with nuts/cams/whatever.
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rick_marsh
Jul 27, 2007, 3:49 PM
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ouch! hope you recover quickly. you'll get that route next time, but before you do I would spend a little time going over (hands on) the finer points of cam placements with an experienced trad or aid leader.
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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 3:49 PM
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dbrayack
Jul 27, 2007, 3:51 PM
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I've climbed the route. I remember placing cams, but do you know what I mean about how the rock is very "bulbous?" Like were all the cams touching well? As much as a cam whore that I am, I found that Seneca really takes better nuts than anything.
I hope you get better!
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cxy101
Jul 27, 2007, 3:51 PM
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First, I hope you are recovering well and in relatively good spirites.
Second, for everyone else who, that climb is only 90 feet long (from the ledge that everyone starts from), and I can't think of a number #3 BD placement at 60 feet. This means his 60 foot fall probably includes falling off the ledge that everyone starts from and down to the stairs.
The rock on SSS is "typically" very good, but slick. If you placed where I think you did. A minor flare may have been enough to get things moving the the larger flare below, once the cam started moving it would have just kept going.
The other possibility is that one side of the cam was on questionable rock. Either a fractured block that shifted under the forces the cam exerted under you full weight. Or, crumbly rock (that appeared good) the crumble leaving "ball bearings" between the face and cam lobes. I've seem plenty of rock at Seneca that fits either of these descriptions.
You know the placement and are the best to evaluate if any of thsi is a possibility.
Best wishes on a speedy recovery.
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dbrayack
Jul 27, 2007, 3:53 PM
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You have to wade through the stupidity to get real responses. Just ignore what people say unless they're being serious.
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lodi5onu
Jul 27, 2007, 3:55 PM
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ooooh, you mostly climb in yosemite! that means you're not used to really polished...wait a second...
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swaghole
Jul 27, 2007, 3:59 PM
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In reply to: also no other gear for 60 ft??? or at least 30 seeing u decked from the fall. it sounds like u ran out a climb with good pro where as if u had not u prolly wouldnt have decked.
I am not sure that the OP decked. He would have said that. Still, i hope he gets well soon.
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cxy101
Jul 27, 2007, 4:01 PM
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ya, caught that after the fact. Thanks.
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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 4:07 PM
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yekcir
Jul 27, 2007, 4:57 PM
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Polished rock at Seneca is pretty wild stuff. My suggestion is to place good passive gear when you can (and Triple S takes it well).
Hope you heal quickly. When you do, go do Green Wall, all passive if possible. Hit up a few more moderate corners like Ye Gods, Climbin Punishment etc... and get back at Triple S. That thing is awesome when it flows well.
That said, next time you go to hang on a piece to rest, expect it to fail and prepare to fall. Expecting the fall will help you get out from the rock and avoid the pinball effect.
Good luck!
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hibby11
Jul 27, 2007, 4:57 PM
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If i'm going to rest on a cam I give it a hard yank as well as a slow one. Since when your resting you aren't transferring a huge force to the gear there isn't as much friction between the surface of the lobes and the rock. Sometimes a cam that will hold a big fall with a high force, will slide right out under low load if the rock is polished.
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