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majid_sabet
Jul 27, 2007, 5:17 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: I had a fall at Senceca Rocks last week and am trying to figure out what went wrong so I can not repeat the incident in my future trad leads. I was climbing the 5.8 route Triple S, about 60 feet up. I placed a #3 BD (blue) cam and went to rest on it. It wiggled so I replaced it, then tugged hard and it stayed put, so I took, easing slowly onto it. It held for a second, but next thing I know, I was free-falling. I know I should have backed it up (hindsight), but for the future - I am still unclear why it pulled. It was slightly undercammed, but not so much I could have used a #4. It might have been slightly polished, and only a bit, if at all, flaring. Anyone climb this route have any thoughts?? Or any other thoughts?? (I suffered 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung and a bruised liver. Not a good fall).
I got few questions for you;
1-How far up were you from belay( total rope out) ?
2-Total protections between you and belay?
3-Type of protections ( name each, size)?
4-Distance between you and the last protection below you before fall ?
5-Distance between last protection and the one below it and its types ?
6-Type of belay device?
7-Rope size ?
8-helmet or no ?
Thanks
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jul 27, 2007, 5:18 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 5:22 PM
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Majid, read the effin post. 60ft up, 8 pieces of gear aparantly 10ft above piece that held so 20ft fall when gear failed under body weight, slammed into wall got hurt. helmet? ?
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sticky_fingers
Jul 27, 2007, 5:26 PM
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Damn, sorry to hear about your fall. I've done that climb and the only advice I can give has already been given; test your placements by yanking them in mulitple (downward) directions and with varying degrees of force.
Hope you recover quickly and thoroughly.
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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 6:29 PM
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hibby11
Jul 27, 2007, 6:41 PM
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Ignore him, if you plan on hanging around the site you might want to read the topic about Killfile
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majid_sabet
Jul 27, 2007, 6:53 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster?
Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped.
what if two more protections got pulled ?
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
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hibby11
Jul 27, 2007, 6:55 PM
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I think we all understand the fact that if you blow a ton of gear your gonna hit the ground.......thanks for that insightful conclusion.
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majid_sabet
Jul 27, 2007, 7:05 PM
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hibby11 wrote: I think we all understand the fact that if you blow a ton of gear your gonna hit the ground.......thanks for that insightful conclusion.
Well,my questions were directly to OP and not you and I am not really interested on your opinion in any shape or form.
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cracklover
Jul 27, 2007, 7:51 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: so, if you pull on a cam in a polished crack and it doesn't move, that isn't enough, i take it? i did place the piece angling down, since I knew i was going to take on it. and it didn't move at all when i yanked (rather hard, or as hard as i could). placing further back in is good advice. any other advice for polished crack? i plan to climb out east again...
The following is not specific to climbing here out east. I've climbed kind of all over, and it's generally true:
1 - placing further back does not insure a better placement. A better placement is a better placement. You can have a nice pocket near the edge where a cam will sit nicely, and would have to massively deform the axle before it could fail. Where further in, the crack could be parallel or flaring or polished or crumbly or dirty or..., allowing the cam to track out. A better placement is always better than a worse placement. The main worries about placing something really near the edge of a crack are if it's placed in a funky spot where rotation could allow it to fall out, or in soft rock, where a hard fall near the edge could allow it to blow out the edges of the crack, or in a splitter crack where it might track out. In many cases, especially with small gear, a placement further back is *worse*, not only because it's hard for your second to clean, but because it can be hard to tell how good the placement is. The difference between a superb blue Alien and pure psychological pro is impossible to tell if it's buried deep in a shadowy crack.
2 - I don't care how many people here say they give their cams a good hard tug. This tells you *almost nothing* about whether the cam will hold a fall. The only way to tell is by bouncing on the piece or testing it with a funkness device. And if you're sitting on it, and looking at a 20' fall if it blows, well obviously that's not a good time to test it!
In other words, not having seen the placement or knowing your skills, there's no way to know, but let's say you could be better at analyzing and/or placing gear. If so, maybe you could do a little aid climbing - where you bounce on each piece. That could help an enormous amount (though after your fall, it could be a bit traumatic!)
But because I can't see the placement that failed, I'm going to assume for the moment that you're excellent at analyzing and placing gear, and it actually looked picture-perfect. It happens - rarely, but it happens. In that case, the main lesson to learn here is one that's been said by a number of other posters on this thread already: never trust a single piece of gear if you are actually going to be falling or weighting it. Typically in trad climbing, your hands and feet are a backup to the gear. If you get rid of that backup (by hanging on a piece or by falling), then you damn well better have another type of backup. That means a second piece of gear.
Hope some of the above is helpful, and I hope you have a full and a speedy recovery!
GO
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rocknice2
Jul 27, 2007, 8:58 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster? Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped. what if two more protections got pulled ? [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3275/untitledip5.jpg[/IMG]
Tell us ohgreatone how many peices do you place
1pro/foot
2pro/foot
3pro/foot
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shockabuku
Jul 27, 2007, 9:05 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: hibby11 wrote: I think we all understand the fact that if you blow a ton of gear your gonna hit the ground.......thanks for that insightful conclusion. Well,my questions were directly to OP and not you and I am not really interested on your opinion in any shape or form.
Likewise I'm sure.
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charley
Jul 27, 2007, 11:01 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster? Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped. what if two more protections got pulled ? [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3275/untitledip5.jpg[/IMG]
If I worried about all the what if's out there. I would never leave the house. I would rather die trying than wondering though.
Sorry. I hope you heal well and soon, young lady.
(This post was edited by charley on Jul 27, 2007, 11:03 PM)
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kmc
Jul 27, 2007, 11:34 PM
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Not to sound like a dick, but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you dont know what your doing.
As others have said, swallow your pride get on climbs well below whatever level you think you can climb and practice placing gear. Climb a lot of easy routes, and place a lot of gear. This type of experience is the only thing that will get you better at placing gear.
There is nothing wrong with pushing your limits on a trad climb, but its only ok if the gear is good, and if your gear is good.
Sorry to hear about your fall. Hope you heal up quickly.
~Kevin
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rasoy
Jul 28, 2007, 1:49 AM
Post #39 of 53
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"but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you don't know what your doing."
Happened to me man. It's happened to many I know.
Are you sure "You" know what you're talking about?
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virial
Jul 28, 2007, 2:15 AM
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just because gear is bad does not mean the climber placing it can not place gear.....just like good gear does not mean a climber places the gear good....
a climber should have a very good idea of weather there gear is good or not. they also should climb like they are soloing if they are not sure of there gear, weather placed well or not. to insure safety!
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reno
Jul 28, 2007, 3:04 AM
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kmc wrote: Not to sound like a dick, but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you dont know what your doing.
Sometimes, perhaps.
There are rare times when a piece is placed, declared "Bomber", and it isn't. Visual inspection, positioning, past experiences, etc. all tell you "Yeah, that's solid stuff."
Then it pulls. The reason for the pull matters not.
An experienced gear climber will *usually* know if a piece is solid or not. But sometimes, to borrow a phrase, "Shit happens" and gear pulls.
Glad the OP is (more or less) alright, and will live to climb another day. Lesson learned.
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rasoy
Jul 28, 2007, 3:24 AM
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So Reno?
That quote you always put on the bottom of your posts?
"To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden....."
Dog spelled backwards = GOD
I think this Milan Kundera made a monumental error in his judgment of eden?
Maybe it should have been:
To sit with GOD on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden .....
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shockabuku
Jul 28, 2007, 4:48 AM
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Milan Kundera spelled backwards is a red nuknalim. Woo hoo!
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reno
Jul 28, 2007, 5:27 AM
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rasoy wrote: So Reno? That quote you always put on the bottom of your posts? "To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden....." Dog spelled backwards = GOD
Indeed. Thus, the bumper sticker on my car:
"Dog is my co-pilot."
Wanna see the pics of a Siberian Husky, head out the passenger window, tongue flopping in the wind, saliva strewn along the side of my car?
Yeah, me neither. 
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SkaFreak
Jul 28, 2007, 6:25 AM
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First of all, let me say to the OP, hope you have a good recovery.
Second, to majid:
What would happen if the rope snapped?
What would happen if the harness failed?
What would happen if the belay device/biner failed?
What would happen if the the entire cliff face slid off?
What would happen if the climb got hit by a stray nuclear missile test?
Here's one: What would happen if you stopped asking dumb questions about people's injuries and deaths and instead focused on your own climbing? You've already passed misinformation about one of my friends deaths in the past, so just give up on it. I don't care if you're serious or trolling. Either way there's no point in it.
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notapplicable
Jul 28, 2007, 7:05 PM
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There appear to be a lot of infallible people who have some how lived there entire life without making a misjudgment or mistake. Its astounding really, I mean what are the odds of even one person like this existing in our world and yet here we have all these folks gathered in one place.
reg wrote: go back under ur bridge
nnowinowski wrote: Oh my god. Learn to place gear and climb within your limits. I'm sorry you got hurt but that is a simple climb with good gear. It takes better hexes than cams as the rock is slick and flaring. But -- there are good cam placements galore.
kmc wrote: Not to sound like a dick, but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you dont know what your doing.
Hmmm, sounds a little questionable to me. I call shenanigans!
To the OP:I hope you heal well. It appears you misjudged a placement (happens to everyone) but you obiously know something about leading on gear seeing as how you finished the fall hanging from the end of you rope and not on the ground. Don't let these fools on here bother you, you now have a better understaning of how your gear interacts with the rock and are (hopefully) a safer climber for it.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 29, 2007, 1:18 PM
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KMC For someone who claimed they didn't want to sount like a dick you sure did a good job of it.......
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microbarn
Jul 29, 2007, 1:35 PM
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cracklover wrote: 2 - I don't care how many people here say they give their cams a good hard tug. This tells you *almost nothing* about whether the cam will hold a fall. The only way to tell is by bouncing on the piece or testing it with a funkness device. And if you're sitting on it, and looking at a 20' fall if it blows, well obviously that's not a good time to test it!
I understand your position that a tug won't tell you everything about your placement. I am not arguing that. However, are you implying that a tug is a waste of time? Wouldn't you rather tug and know something before you weight a piece?
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limeydave
Jul 29, 2007, 1:49 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster? Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped. what if two more protections got pulled ? [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3275/untitledip5.jpg[/IMG]
I always learn something from your posts Majid.
Today I learnt that if enough pieces of gear pull, you may hit the ground.
You should write a book.
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