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blueeyedclimber
Aug 2, 2007, 1:50 PM
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Granted, bolts do not belong everywhere, and some should not be placed. If you do place bolts, make sure that you are doing it in "good" style.
Now to my point...I co-run an outdoor climbing camp in MA and take kids to area sites in and around Boston. We went to Black and White rocks in Melrose yesterday and I found two sets of toprope bolts chopped. Give me a break! This is a little chossy pile of rock that only summer camps and beginners use. If some local idiot wants to do someting good, how about cleaning up all the beer cans that litter the base.
As for damaging the rock, now they are in worse shape then when the bolts were in.
This is just about some loser's ego and thinks he is all badass. If bolt choppers really thought they were doing the right thing then they would do it when people were around. Give the world a break, will you?
Josh
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reg
Aug 2, 2007, 2:04 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Granted, bolts do not belong everywhere, and some should not be placed. If you do place bolts, make sure that you are doing it in "good" style. Now to my point...I co-run an outdoor climbing camp in MA and take kids to area sites in and around Boston. We went to Black and White rocks in Melrose yesterday and I found two sets of toprope bolts chopped. Give me a break! This is a little chossy pile of rock that only summer camps and beginners use. If some local idiot wants to do someting good, how about cleaning up all the beer cans that litter the base. As for damaging the rock, now they are in worse shape then when the bolts were in. This is just about some loser's ego and thinks he is all badass. If bolt choppers really thought they were doing the right thing then they would do it when people were around. Give the world a break, will you? Josh
well said - i agree with your assesment of who and why. those bolts were not an issue (as far as over-bolting, FA issues, etc.).
on a side note, i never understood the big deal of having a bolt or two on a trad route - ya don't have to use it right? somebody fill me in on that issue.
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limeydave
Aug 2, 2007, 2:07 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: ... If bolt choppers really thought they were doing the right thing then they would do it when people were around. Give the world a break, will you? Josh
A lot of these guys are getting pretty old now - don't worry, they won't be able to get out of the nursing home soon - let alone sneak up to the crag at night and chop their big fat 'i told you so' to all those scouts flying up their 5.4 project in Nike's.
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gogounou
Aug 2, 2007, 2:41 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: If bolt choppers really thought they were doing the right thing then they would do it when people were around.
Ding, ding! I couldn't agree with you more. If someone is running around doing this, AND doing it on an ethics-based argument, why aren't they standing up to support their ethics?
Strikes me as a bit cowardly.
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dingus
Aug 2, 2007, 3:38 PM
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Were they chopped recently? Like post-court-settlement?
DMT
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builttospill
Aug 2, 2007, 3:48 PM
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reg wrote: on a side note, i never understood the big deal of having a bolt or two on a trad route - ya don't have to use it right? somebody fill me in on that issue.
Dear God, not again....
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dynosore
Aug 2, 2007, 3:50 PM
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A bolt costs 5$ but it only costs a nichol to chop it?
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 2, 2007, 3:59 PM
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dingus wrote: Were they chopped recently? Like post-court-settlement? DMT
THey were chopped within the last week. I highly doubt that Ken Nichols was involved. He likes the publicity of higher profile areas. This seems the work of a local brain surgeon.
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wonderwoman
Aug 2, 2007, 4:02 PM
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dingus wrote: Were they chopped recently? Like post-court-settlement? DMT
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dingus
Aug 2, 2007, 4:06 PM
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Got it thanks. Just some drive-by curiousity.
Have you two considered moving west???
Cheers!
DMT
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rsmillbern
Aug 2, 2007, 4:12 PM
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limeydave wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: ... If bolt choppers really thought they were doing the right thing then they would do it when people were around. Give the world a break, will you? Josh A lot of these guys are getting pretty old now - don't worry, they won't be able to get out of the nursing home soon - let alone sneak up to the crag at night and chop their big fat 'i told you so' to all those scouts flying up their 5.4 project in Nike's.
Unfortunately it's not just the older guys, it is also the FA ego tripper, your crap is not as good as mine, go home yankee people here... :-( I try to derive entertainment from their bickering.
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wonderwoman
Aug 2, 2007, 4:23 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I highly doubt that Ken Nichols was involved. He likes the publicity of higher profile areas. This seems the work of a local brain surgeon.
I don't know about that. Maybe his recent publicity has driven him to 'leave-no-bolt-unchopped'. Maybe he's slummin' it!
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 2, 2007, 4:41 PM
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Reg. i happen to be in agreement that most bolt choppers are cowardly egotistical aholes but your comment about not haveing to clip a bolt if you don't want to shows an absurd level of ignorance and shows that you don't know jack shit about real climbing.
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moose_droppings
Aug 2, 2007, 4:52 PM
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builttospill wrote: reg wrote: on a side note, i never understood the big deal of having a bolt or two on a trad route - ya don't have to use it right? somebody fill me in on that issue. Dear God, not again....
Tempting as it is, your right.
It would be 
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Gmburns2000
Aug 2, 2007, 5:22 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: I highly doubt that Ken Nichols was involved. He likes the publicity of higher profile areas. This seems the work of a local brain surgeon. I don't know about that. Maybe his recent publicity has driven him to 'leave-no-bolt-unchopped'. Maybe he's slummin' it!
Is it the same people who keep chopping Red Rocks (Gloucester - not Vegas)? That rock is starting to look damn ugly with the multiple chops going on.
Are you talking about Crag 1 in the Fells?
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reg
Aug 2, 2007, 5:27 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Reg. i happen to be in agreement that most bolt choppers are cowardly egotistical aholes but your comment about not haveing to clip a bolt if you don't want to shows an absurd level of ignorance and shows that you don't know jack shit about real climbing.
will you further enlighten me?
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azrockclimber
Aug 2, 2007, 5:31 PM
Post #17 of 117
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Granted, bolts do not belong everywhere, and some should not be placed. If you do place bolts, make sure that you are doing it in "good" style. Now to my point...I co-run an outdoor climbing camp in MA and take kids to area sites in and around Boston. We went to Black and White rocks in Melrose yesterday and I found two sets of toprope bolts chopped. Give me a break! This is a little chossy pile of rock that only summer camps and beginners use. If some local idiot wants to do someting good, how about cleaning up all the beer cans that litter the base. As for damaging the rock, now they are in worse shape then when the bolts were in. This is just about some loser's ego and thinks he is all badass. If bolt choppers really thought they were doing the right thing then they would do it when people were around. Give the world a break, will you? Josh
I've seen better rants......
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cracklover
Aug 2, 2007, 5:34 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: dingus wrote: Were they chopped recently? Like post-court-settlement? DMT THey were chopped within the last week. I highly doubt that Ken Nichols was involved. He likes the publicity of higher profile areas. This seems the work of a local brain surgeon.
I dunno. I'm pretty sure he's chopped at Red Rock (little tiny crag in Gloucester, MA - not the big one outside Vegas).
Josh, have you gotten in touch with Dick Doucette, who does the Access Fund stuff for our area? He might know more about it.
GO
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freezorburn
Aug 2, 2007, 5:44 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: This is just about some loser's ego and thinks he is all badass. If bolt choppers really thought they were doing the right thing then they would do it when people were around. Give the world a break, will you? Josh
Yeah,
Just vandalism by some low life that thinks there saving the world. Totally misguided ethics they think there being green when in fact there just dumb. Happens all over any idea who did it?
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dalguard
Aug 2, 2007, 8:55 PM
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In CT, Ken will chop any bolt anywhere. I'm pretty sure if you put a bolt on a boulder in your backyard to hold your hammock up, he'd be there to chop it within a week. Whether he extends that same courtesy to MA, I don't know, but if CT has pissed him off lately somehow, it's certainly possible.
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stabla
Aug 2, 2007, 10:30 PM
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Well i just had my first real run-in with what i think was bolt choping so i will chime in here. I was at Whiteside Mountain a few weeks ago doing the 5.11a OR trad route. It is certainly one of the most trafficed routes in the area (of eastern North Crarolina) as well as classic. The North Carolina's climber's guide specifically showed there to be bolts at a majority of the belays (10 pitches total). However, pitches three and 4 (possibly more we had to bail because of rain) had been chopped. Not knowing this and going for the on-sight i brought very little gear. This translated into some very interesting and sketchy anchor building on my part. The bolts at the belays were clearly chopped and filled-in with what looked like some form of morter. After we bailed my partner began discussing the ethics (or lack-of) of bolt chopping. On multi-pitch routes do "choppers" do it on rappel or lead? Do they use other existing bolts to make chopping easier? If you get stuck chopping a route do you use bolts to bail from the route? Do you cut the bolts manually or with some battery powererd saw? These are all questions i have for people who enjoy carrying hacksaws (or otherwise) to crags.
On a side note i am also somewhat dissapointed in the editors/team at alpinist. In the last issue they gave full support to Josh Wharton and his attempt to chop the compressor route. Although Maestri is certainly not my favorite character from mountaineering history he is still the first ascensionist. And by Josh chopping the route he would be dramatically altering the nature of the climb. But truley what will this accomplish? You make the climb harder or more pure? I am not quite sure about the purity of a chopped route? A person/human again is attemping to manipulate/control the rock (just as the first ascensionist, Maestri, wanted too). I guess my question for choppers is, instead of chopping the route and inflating machismo levels, why not just educate younger climbers on bold first ascent ethics? Why not just spread the "good word" which is to place bolts only when its absolutely necessary. I know their may be gray areas here, but hopefully ya'll get my point. In short i know some bolting is excessive, but a more progressive option to chopping (in my humble opionion) is to educate younger climbers on brave climbing. That could be a very strong step to the solution to excessive bolting. Chopping i believe is like modern day medicine or governmental intervention. They are all TEMPORARY SOLUTIONS (or patch work), not preventitive what so ever! So i encourage all choppers (as well as our government, and doctors) to THINK AHEAD!
-END OF RANT-
Thank ya'll for listening
peace
blake
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el_layclimber
Aug 2, 2007, 11:06 PM
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stabla wrote: On a side note i am also somewhat dissapointed in the editors/team at alpinist. In the last issue they gave full support to Josh Wharton and his attempt to chop the compressor route. Although Maestri is certainly not my favorite character from mountaineering history he is still the first ascensionist. And by Josh chopping the route he would be dramatically altering the nature of the climb. But truley what will this accomplish? You make the climb harder or more pure? I am not quite sure about the purity of a chopped route? A person/human again is attemping to manipulate/control the rock (just as the first ascensionist, Maestri, wanted too).
Yeah, I thought that whole thing was pretty lame. If they had been able to do the route sans bolts, then perhaps they'd have a leg to stand on, but they ended up clipping nearly half of them. I don't have the talent (or desire) to do that route even with the bolts, but I wouldn't clip my way up them and then chop my way back down.
Didn't Maestri leave the fucking compressor up there? Hump that back to civilization and ride a bike if you want to do something good for the environment.
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dingus
Aug 2, 2007, 11:25 PM
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The route is part of our history. They had no business fucking with it. Shame on them.
DMT
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 2, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Reg, You can't pretend a bolt is not there anymore than you can pretend a hold is not there. Climbing outside ain't the gym. The location and presence of fixed gear greatly affects the way a climb climbs. The experience that the leader has on that climb is determined by the location, dificulty and style of climbing as well as the type and availability of gear. You can not add a bolt to an established classic and then just tell folks who don't like it not to use it. Its there and the whole nature of the climb may be affected by that one bolt. On the otherhand if a climb sucks so bad that no one ever climbs it and it grows back over with lichen maby a few added bolts might be a good thing I can think of quite a few classic climbs that would be totaly ruined with the addition of a bolt here or there. I can think of a few not so classic climbs that would be instant classics with the addition of a bolt or 2
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trebork2
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Aug 2, 2007, 11:56 PM
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This is a never ending battle
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