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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 4:53 PM
Post #51 of 69
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 This convsersation is so ass backwards. The young buck telling the seasoned vet how great hexes are!? [/pirate]
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dingus
Aug 3, 2007, 5:01 PM
Post #52 of 69
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I think the main area where cams completely blow the doors off of hexes is 'fire-in and clip' placements on sustained climbing.
Those long, straight, soaring cracks with nary a rest ledge, one long endurance fest. The ability to climb into a crux and fire a piece in and clip it in about 3 seconds.... I'm sorry, hexes cannot be counted upon for this duty.
So yeah I grew up using hexes. And no one snidely told me to stop using them. It was my desire to move onto harder routes that culled them from the rack.
I like 3 or 4 for alpine though... depending upon the objective I might take 3 or 4 mid to large-uns, 3 more likely. Couple O lost arrows and blades, some screws depending, some cams and a wad of nuts. As someone else mentioned, I too consider them disposable and wouldn't think twice to augment some rap anchor with them.
Hexes also do better inside irregular cracks. The well known P2 on Reeds Direct in Yos can easily be protected with hexes for example. The first and 3rd pitches are different stories however.
For long multipitch granite routes, piece for piece, size for size, I'd rather have a cam on the rack every time.
to a beginner or intermediate wanted to master hexes, go for it! It'll be good for you I'm sure, these others guys have convinced me they're right on that score.
But I think you'll see what I mean if you track into the harder grades... the ability to fire in and clip is HUGE!
Cheers
DMT
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 5:08 PM
Post #53 of 69
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How many times do I need to say that when the climbing gets steep and hard I place cams??? 
Dingus, you are dead on man. For the fire-it-in-and-clip instantanesouly climbing cams are better. No doubt, no arguement from me...
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Gmburns2000
Aug 3, 2007, 5:42 PM
Post #54 of 69
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cracklover wrote: hosh wrote: Loose the apostrophe. Christ, the word is "lose". Loose means to set something free, or too large to fit. And the past tense of Lead is Led. I led the first pit. He will lead the second one. I need a beer. Is it 5:01 yet? GO
Pitch
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2007, 5:45 PM
Post #55 of 69
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Ok so we are all warm and fuzzy in agreement. My only differing point is that you may want to save the money and put it twords something that will work better on harder climbs. If you do buy hexes #9 and #10 BD or that equivilant in annother brand will most likly be the most usefull in the long term. Seen pleanty of guys(chicks are smart enough to use cams) buy the whole set and then never use any of them once they start climbing harder. When the feces hits the ventalater you might just want to hike that big green unbrella up the crack with you
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Aug 3, 2007, 5:52 PM)
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psprings
Aug 3, 2007, 6:37 PM
Post #56 of 69
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Just to point something out about weight, which is a usual argument in favor of hexes, especially for "alpine use":
WC hexes 4-9 (6) = 531g
roughly corresponding to:
Met UL cams 4-8 (5) = 529g
The weight argument for hexes over cams is much less of an issue than people think it is... it's great to have hexes for bailing and things that are prone to expanding or could turn out to be loose with enough force, but they really don't save you much weight now that cams are being made lighter.
I love my ULs!
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ropeburn
Aug 3, 2007, 7:06 PM
Post #57 of 69
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psprings wrote: Just to point something out about weight, which is a usual argument in favor of hexes, especially for "alpine use": WC hexes 4-9 (6) = 531g roughly corresponding to: Met UL cams 4-8 (5) = 529g
You forgot to compare range:
[numbers from the book, useful range may differ]
WC hexes 4-9 = 30-149mm
Met UL cams 4-8 = 23-78mm
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cracklover
Aug 3, 2007, 7:40 PM
Post #58 of 69
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dingus wrote: I think the main area where cams completely blow the doors off of hexes is 'fire-in and clip' placements on sustained climbing.
Oh, sure. Definitely. Though where they *really* blow hexes right out of the water is in parallel and flaring cracks. No matter how good your endurance, you can not hang out long enough to make that baby stick, whether it's in the middle of a crux, or at a monster ledge. It won't go where it won't go.
By the way, I've seen people plug-and-go cams, where most of their placements were complete shit. I could tell they would be shit just watching the (new) leader. He clearly had no clue. Yeah, they're easy to place, those cams, but they don't place themselves.
GO
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cracklover
Aug 3, 2007, 7:41 PM
Post #59 of 69
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ropeburn wrote: psprings wrote: Just to point something out about weight, which is a usual argument in favor of hexes, especially for "alpine use": WC hexes 4-9 (6) = 531g roughly corresponding to: Met UL cams 4-8 (5) = 529g You forgot to compare range: [numbers from the book, useful range may differ] WC hexes 4-9 = 30-149mm Met UL cams 4-8 = 23-78mm
Oooh! Burnnnn!
GO
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psprings
Aug 3, 2007, 7:52 PM
Post #60 of 69
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Heh, whoops! YOU put in gms for the upper end of the WC range.
see this link: http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/...ivePro/Rockcentrics/
it should be:
WC hexes 4-9: 33-73mm
Met 4-8: 23-74mm (my numbers show 74 on the met mm for the #8)
still, the hexes have one more piece to place, but range is about identical... with the cams having more.
(This post was edited by psprings on Aug 3, 2007, 7:55 PM)
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dingus
Aug 3, 2007, 8:01 PM
Post #61 of 69
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One of my partners felt that hexes were way to heavy for the back country.
So... (seriously, he did the following) he took 2 or 3 large hexes and he cut them like one would cut cookies out of a tollhouse cookie dough roll.
These cuts me made were wedged shaped, so he ended up with a large hollow wedged shaped, hexx-outlined nut.
He slung em really long and would place them as a nut or as a hex.
Now me? I NEVER trusted those bogus motherfuckers and I knew for a fact he never pull tested them. So far as I know, and he drug me up routes to mid-11 in wilderness areas, he never once fell on one.
He put a hex on his hexes, haha! Don't try THAT at home. (wisht I had pics!)
DMT
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psprings
Aug 3, 2007, 8:18 PM
Post #62 of 69
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He he, sounds stimulating :D Nothing like good 'ol home cooking to keep your wits sharp, and the sharp end from being fallen on! Have you ever tried cutting your own 6-9" tube chock? I don't think I'd trust that either... in the old days I heard they slung 2x4s for chimneys and OWs...
Peter
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ropeburn
Aug 3, 2007, 8:19 PM
Post #63 of 69
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eh, whatever. Crazy brits...
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psprings
Aug 3, 2007, 8:27 PM
Post #64 of 69
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LOL, you're telling me they have 2 different charts with 2 different numbers? LOL, yeah, crazy I suppose...
Weird... 149mm is 14.9cm is... (divide by 2.54 or something close to that).... 6"!!!
This is very interesting... very.
ps- did you see their "advanced tie off"? Clove hitch and junk to pull on just one strand of the sling? Crazy is right, I think...
Peter
edit: used the 156 first... my bad. Still almost 6" tho'. Really weird... I think that number in that diagram has to be wrong. Where did you see that chart? The chart that I posted the link too shows different numbers with 73 being the max...
(This post was edited by psprings on Aug 3, 2007, 9:40 PM)
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moose_droppings
Aug 3, 2007, 8:51 PM
Post #65 of 69
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tradmanclimbs wrote: So I follow your advise and I buy a bunch of hexes, don't have any money left over for cams and i go on a road trip.
The price of 3 or 4 midrange to large hexes is what, half a tank nowadays?
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pastprime
Aug 6, 2007, 5:43 PM
Post #66 of 69
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the pros and cons have been covered well above, but to a lesser degree it is like arguing over whether rock shoes are better than crampons. There are places where one is ideal, other places that call for the other. I love cams, use 'em all the time, but there are pockety slots, especially on cruiser routes or mountainy cracks, where a hex drops in so wonderfully well, and is so obviously completely immovable by anything the rope can possibly do, that I like to carry them. Once you get an eye for those kinds of placements, you can drop a hex in about as fast as you can plug a cam into clean rock. In dirty rock, or where you are uncertain of the quality of the rock surface, you can often just drop in a hex faster than you can inspect and clean a cam placement. These places are obviously not in Indian Creek, or harder routes in Yosemite.
I have done, in bygone days, semi hanging belays from a single large hex, backed up with a sliing passed through it lengthwise, that neither I nor my very competent partner was worried about at all. You can place, sometimes, a hex in a way that the only way it could come out would be to destroy either it or several inches of solid granite. I can't say I've ever seen a cam placement in which I would have that much faith.
I've been using Hexcentrics since before they were asymetrical, and feel a lot of loyalty for a number of reasons to Chouinard now Black Diamond, but a couple of years ago I tried Rockcentrics, fell in love, and haven't gone back. If you get hexes at all, they are hands down the ones to get. The placements are just easier and more secure.
(This post was edited by pastprime on Aug 6, 2007, 5:49 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 6, 2007, 8:10 PM
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I did an FA yesterday that I suspected was going to have a HEX specefic placement so I brought 2 with me. As suspected the best placement on the whole rt was the hex that I am stepping up on to in the attached photo. Thing is though I could not have done the rt on hexes hammerless without cams. I could have done the rt with cams and no hexes though. If weight is really a factor I being cams. More versatile, more places that they will fit
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Aug 6, 2007, 8:23 PM)
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rocloco
Aug 7, 2007, 1:12 AM
Post #69 of 69
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Hexes are the bestest!
Heh heh, admit it tradman, you love em too. You can say it. We're all friends here. We won't think less of you.
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