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petsfed
Aug 20, 2007, 7:54 PM
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dbrayack wrote: Yah. Good post man, for sure. I've hardly ever seen people take honest to God lead falls on trad gear....I see it all the time on sport climbs, its casual. But if you're going to push yourself to the limit on trad climbs, shouldn't you be falling on them too? I guess there's a difference, like you said between a hard crack (pretty much consistent gear) and run-out face climbs... Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?
I watched a dude take pretty good sized whippers on every single piece he placed on Plumbline yesterday. Its a slightly overhanging 5.9 hand crack. The falls were clean, and the pro is really easy, so it was safe. He'd put in another cam when the previous one was just underneath his lower foot, and at one point he fell trying to clip a piece. When I attempted the route earlier that day, I bailed after clipping a piece at the exact same spot. We placed gear in the exact same spots, indeed from the exact same jams. I had not fallen or even hung. I'm not being arrogant when i say that I had quite a bit more technique than this guy, but I was unable to reconcile how I perceived the risk with the actual risk implicit to the climb, and that is why I failed.
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bandycoot
Aug 20, 2007, 7:55 PM
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petsfed wrote: Often in trad climbing, you'll see people backing off of routes well within their ability because they are afraid of falling and haven't developed the risk assessment skills that help them decide when its ok to fall or not.
I've backed off trad lines before because I was afraid of falling. I assessed the risks, and decided it wasn't OK to fall, and backed off. I usually get stronger and go back for the route later. Backing off is OK! Go throw a TR on it and learn from the climb.
You have to climb intelligently, and know when to back off if you're going to push you limits on trad. Trad isn't always safe, and it's not always OK to push your limits. Start pushing your limits on WELL PROTECTED trad, take some falls, learn, then move on to the more sketchy stuff with knowledge and experience.
Put 2 in before the crux if you can.
Josh
Edit: I've taken some good sized falls trad climbing, but I wouldn't say it's consistent. I'll put myself in the position to take big falls regularly, but I usually don't take them.
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Aug 20, 2007, 7:58 PM)
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deschamps1000
Aug 20, 2007, 7:56 PM
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8flood8 wrote: i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)
Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.
I would thus encourage all of you 5.11 sport climbers to go out and give it a shot.
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dreday3000
Aug 20, 2007, 8:12 PM
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I think its important to fall. I would say I fall at least once a day. I think that if more people were willing to test their gear, they would learn a lot faster.
If you're not falling, you're not pushing your limits and if you're not pushing your limits your not learning. How many old school tradheads do you know with that "the leader never falls ethos"? It ain't coincidence that the majority of those people never break the 5.10 range.
That said, you got to be careful to evaluate the quality of your placements and repercussions of your actions. Like what would happen if a piece blows? How likely is that piece to blow? Where is my next placement?
For the record, I have never been injured in a trad climbing accident. My gear is SOLID. Bruised my heal once ( on Lunatic Fringe at Doug Reed's Pinicale) but that's about it. Thus far, gym, sport, and bouldering has been far more dangerous.
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jonqdoe
Aug 20, 2007, 8:16 PM
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8flood8 wrote: jt512 wrote: 8flood8 wrote: he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail. 0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good." Jay "During my tests, about one in twenty good-looking placements pulled out when loaded. The challenge is to figure out why the cam pulled, and what could have been done to prevent this from happening. " http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1650449;search_string=1%20in%2020;#1650449 sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.
I have also seen that quote, and I really question its validity. Does that number really seem accurate to you, given how many people are willing to fall on gear? You also have to ask how their tests were performed and what kinds of falls the gear was experiencing. I couldn't find that info anywhere.
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billl7
Aug 20, 2007, 8:17 PM
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dbrayack wrote: Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?
I've fallen on traditional pro on two routes this year (never during the previous). Both were on vertical cracks on very clean faces (splitter cracks?, and there was ample distance between "good-looking" pro and the belay ledge.
Bill L
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crotch
Aug 20, 2007, 8:31 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: If it was standard for fine looking placements to fail, then most/many people would fall roughly twice per C1 pitch of aid climbing where looking good is tends to be the preferred testing method before forging ahead. This simply doesn't happen with experienced climbers.
There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall.
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andypro
Aug 20, 2007, 8:46 PM
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I'm going to have to agree with Jay. If 5% of all palcements failed, I'd be dead by now. I'm sure a lot more people on here would be too.
I've had 2 pieces refuse to do their job in the last 15 years or so and both are placements I half expected to fail anyways. One was a #3 BD nut in a crappy limestone crack. I pretty much new it wouldn't hold, but figured I'd take my chances and maybe it would hold anyways. When I came to a stop ~20 feet later, and it smacked me in the head, I knew on attempt two I'd have to try something different.
Piece number 2 was a #2 camalot in a muddy dirty crack. This one I kinda expected to hold. I gave it 75% chance. But I got hosed in the end. It jsut slid right out.
After thousands of placements, having only two pull....I wonder who's using up all of my 1 in 20 pulled pieces? How many people have been injured because I haven't been?  (do you see the point in that statement?).
As for long falls....depends on what you consider long falls. I will regularly go between 10 and 15 feet, but I dont think thats a long fall (even though it's popular to call small falls like this "whippers" around this site). Sometimes I'll move into the 20-25 foot range, but not often. Once in a while up to the 40 footers...now those are whippers.
The crappy thing about big falls is that you have to climb all that over again. What a pain in the ass.
--Andy P
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flamer
Aug 20, 2007, 9:20 PM
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deschamps1000 wrote: 8flood8 wrote: i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here) Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.
You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.
There are plenty of slab routes in the Valley, The South Platte, Red rocks and other places where the gear is bolts....they are generally very runout...and other gear is not an option. But they are not sport routes.
True sport routes are designed to eliminate the majority of the "danger" and aollow the climber to focus on the body movements of the climbing. Now it can be argued that there are plenty of "unsafe" sport routes out there. However when sport climbing was originally being developed that was the intent.
There were bolted traditional lines long before sport climbing came around.
The style has little to do with it IMHO...you can put up sport routes ground up and you can rap into Traditional lines and pre work or pre place gear.
josh
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iamthewallress
Aug 20, 2007, 9:37 PM
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crotch wrote: iamthewallress wrote: If it was standard for fine looking placements to fail, then most/many people would fall roughly twice per C1 pitch of aid climbing where looking good is tends to be the preferred testing method before forging ahead. This simply doesn't happen with experienced climbers. There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall.
Of course.
I was responding, largely to this:
In reply to: sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.
Weighting gear tends to imply hanging on it or using it for aid purposes.
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deschamps1000
Aug 20, 2007, 9:51 PM
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flamer wrote: You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.
huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts.
Here you go: http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html#t
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j_ung
Aug 20, 2007, 10:10 PM
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deschamps1000 wrote: flamer wrote: You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them. huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts. Here you go: http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html#t
Rockclimbing.com's definition of trad climbing is a little like the explanation a parent might give to a three-year old to explain why the gold fish is circling the toilet bowl.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Aug 20, 2007, 10:11 PM)
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tim_b
Aug 20, 2007, 10:18 PM
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Great subject, guys.
As a new trad climber (2 1/2 years) I've had 4 falls. Probably not enough to register with the likes of most of you. All were on solid gear, thankfully.
I just recently did my first 5.9 lead, on P1 of the Mt. Russell Fishhook Arete. It was thrilling and spooky, all at the same time.
I think the critical item that allowed me to lead that was that another buddy (Jeffrey, who did it the day before) told me that it was TOTALLY PROTECTABLE, "pro for days" as he said (he was right). That gave me the confidence to do it, otherwise, I might have (would have) backed off.
BTW, I led every pitch that day.
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bent_gate
Aug 20, 2007, 10:19 PM
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I'm going to take this from another angle, which will still get objected to.
Only you can judge what amount of risk that is right for you and you are willing to accept. Your feelings and judment at the time may be different than when you look back later.
If looking back now, not under stress, you are not comfortable with the amount of risk that you took; then it was a wrong decision for you.
That's what you seem to be telling us. Only you can tell me if I'm wrong.
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andypro
Aug 20, 2007, 10:43 PM
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bent_gate wrote: If looking back now, not under stress, you are not comfortable with the amount of risk that you took; then it was a wrong decision for you.
Not objecting! Honest! Only providing a thought...
Those of us who have taken the trad sharp end for a while know the "OH SHIT I'M GONNA DIE!" feeling rather well. Noobs get it too, obviously. Theres no way to get rid of it completely. If you dont get it, you're either certifiable, or not pushing your limits.
But learning to deal with that feeling is VERY important. With time and experience, you'll learn to not so much fear it, but use it as a guage on what to do next. It will keep you alive, but you ahve to make the right decisions when you get that feeling. If you're scared out of your wits, your most likely going to make the wrong decision.
I'm not saying you should push into that zone of utter dispair for the express purpose of getting over it. That's just inviting trouble. Instead, when you get to the point of putting on your brown pants, relax and take a look around. Quickly find as many options as you can. Can you make it another move or two that will get you to solid pro? If you did fall, will you bounce all the way down tot he ground? Downclimb? Set a hasty anchor and bail? Perhaps put in a possibly marginal piece so you at least have a chance if you dont make those next few moves?
When you do finally get down (or up!) and get a chance to calm down, take a look at what got you into that situation. Was it avoidable? If so, lesson learned for next time. Was it unavoidable? That's where you have to ascertain your own willingness to put your ass on the line and cope with the feeling and push through. OR..stay on the ground.
Just my $.02.
--Andy P
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jt512
Aug 20, 2007, 10:47 PM
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8flood8 wrote: i know you always think you are right, J... but that is pretty much a quote, although i didn't look up the post so that i could quote it directly.
Quote or not, it's wrong.
In reply to: Aren't you a sport climber anyway?
Nowadays, yeah; but I wasn't always.
Jay
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mistajman
Aug 20, 2007, 10:50 PM
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I would say I consistently take falls when pushing my limits on trad climbs. Good gear holds, I agree with others if it was 1/20 I would def be dead by now. Sometimes if I know that I might take a big whipper I place 2 or 3 pieces and equalize them, and go for it. The biggest fall I've taken recently was a 40 footer on a climb at looking glass rock in North Carolina. But because I assesed the situation I was able to maintain good body position and come out unhurt.
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flamer
Aug 20, 2007, 11:06 PM
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j_ung wrote: deschamps1000 wrote: flamer wrote: You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them. huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts. Here you go: http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html#t Rockclimbing.com's definition of trad climbing is a little like the explanation a parent might give to a three-year old to explain why the gold fish is circling the toilet bowl.
HaHa! Jung is spot on with his evaluation.
I know the difference between "ground up" and "traditional". And I know that they are not always one in the same...but they could be.
I also know the difference between a Traditional climb that is protected by bolts and a sport route.
...if you are really questioning my knowledge of the difference, a good thing to look at is a profile before you make assumptions.
Thanks for the laugh Jung!
josh
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live2climb
Aug 20, 2007, 11:07 PM
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its ALL in your head man. gear is bomber if you use it right so whats the problem, i think your holding yourself back with thoughts like this one, think positive man you can do it and if not the go back to bouldering and face climbing but stay safe and smart or dont do it at all but cams nuts chalks tubes ect all good medecian man trus yourself and you will be fine
james
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notapplicable
Aug 20, 2007, 11:30 PM
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There's nothing quite like being two body lengths above your last piece with your knees a knockin, crying for you mommy and promising the lord if you make it out alive you will never leave the ground again. Then perservering to the top and realizing that was precisely the experience you were looking for. Sometimes its only in retrospect that we can accurately assess the true nature of the experience we just had.
Thats not to say that you should always risk the fall, hell when I start sketching I back off more times than I go for it. If I didn't I'd either be dead or not have any projects, either way, whats the fun in that?
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rocknice2
Aug 20, 2007, 11:33 PM
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I've seen this many times, mostly from sport climbers who finally take up trad.
"I'm a 5.11 climber. I can do that 5.10..... Pfffft!"
Trad is not sport. Your not used to gaging crack sizes nor instantly recognizing a perfect spot for a cam/nut/tricam/etc... Protecting a change in direction, a traverse, an overlap, a roof??.... Marginal gear.... Protecting the second...... The list goes on and we haven't even touch the anchor yet.
The best advice is :
'Don't push both both physical and technical limits at the same time'
Remember that protection ratings are based on an experienced climber with an appropriate rack. As a new trad climber you should bump up the pro grade. [ie: pg=pg13...pg13=R...etc..]
Your NOT a weenie for stepping down 3 or 4 #grades. Find a long easy well protected multi-pitch to do. You probably won't do it latter when you have more experience so do yourself a favour and do it now.
You need to develop your placing in real climbing situations so placing pieces on the ground is a smart start but in no way makes up for experience.
My $.02
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moose_droppings
Aug 20, 2007, 11:52 PM
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andypro wrote: After thousands of placements, having only two pull....I wonder who's using up all of my 1 in 20 pulled pieces? How many people have been injured because I haven't been? (do you see the point in that statement?).
In your 15 years of climbing, if you have fallen 40 times with 2 coming out, that would be 5%. But I'm sure you've fallen more times than that.
In reply to: If 5% of all palcements failed, I'd be dead by now. I'm sure a lot more people on here would be too.
You have had 2 fail and your not dead, so that kinda ups the percentage that can pull without killing ya.
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crotch
Aug 20, 2007, 11:54 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: crotch wrote: There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall. Of course. I was responding, largely to this: In reply to: sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it. Weighting gear tends to imply hanging on it or using it for aid purposes.
My bad. I thought you were commenting on the plausibility of the 1 in 20 statement.
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