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azrockclimber


Aug 21, 2007, 4:35 AM
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Re: [flamer] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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flamer wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
the cool thing about hard trad is you can always aid it!

Really?
Ever heard of Jules Verne? Or The Bachar/ Yerian? What about Risky Business in Red rocks?

There are LOT'S of hard trad lines that can't be aided.
Don't ever assume you can always "just" aid.

josh


right...

defintiely can't count on "just aiding it"....

it doesn't go down like that....


azrockclimber


Aug 21, 2007, 4:39 AM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

I would thus encourage all of you 5.11 sport climbers to go out and give it a shot.


Nope... completely wrong...this has been covered a million times.... you are in the minority if you believe that.....


reg


Aug 21, 2007, 5:48 AM
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Re: [jt512] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 "good" placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay

nice catch jay - quess "good" should be in quotes


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 9:11 AM
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Re: [swede] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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swede wrote:
Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it

Personally, I never take anything consciously without thinking about it.

Jay


Partner angry


Aug 21, 2007, 9:12 AM
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Re: [jt512] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
swede wrote:
Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it

Personally, I never take anything consciously without thinking about it.

Jay

That's deep


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 9:15 AM
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Re: [angry] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.

That is offensive, BTW.

Jay


dleighto


Aug 21, 2007, 9:17 AM
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Re: [jt512] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
swede wrote:
Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it

Personally, I never take anything consciously without thinking about it.

Jay

But I imagine there are many things that you have consciously decided upon after only thinking once about them.

Daniel


stonefoxgirl


Aug 21, 2007, 9:40 AM
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Re: [dbrayack] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Sure was a fun one to follow!


asclepius


Aug 21, 2007, 9:48 AM
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Re: [ADZZL] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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ADZZL,

I was planning on heading up there this weekend to retro bolt all four pitches, it would be super classic! Then my gym jockey friends and I can hang dog it all day and use words like "rad", "sick", and "brah."






Sarcasm, like bold climbing, is an art lost to many.


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 1:32 PM
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Re: [asclepius] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?


bandycoot


Aug 21, 2007, 1:46 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Just because you can't climb at your physical limit when you're trad climbing doesn't mean that others don't. I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing. As you said yourself, you don't understand. The questions is, have you TRIED to understand? It's really not that hard...

My hardest trad and sport onsights are probably both 5.12a, and my hardest sport redpoint is only 2 letter grades harder than my hardest trad redpoint. Doesn't seem to keep me very far from climbing at my physical limit. In fact, I'd say I am climbing at my physical limit.


caughtinside


Aug 21, 2007, 1:51 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit.

Is that the only allure in climbing?

Trad cragging is fun? Crack climbing is fun? You can still climb hard while trad cragging?

Not really sure what else to say... you don't get the allure of trad cragging? What about windsurfing? harry potter books? Developing a cultivated taste in wine?

maybe it just ain't your thing and thats that.


irregularpanda


Aug 21, 2007, 1:56 PM
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Re: [flamer] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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flamer wrote:
deschamps1000 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.


You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.
There are plenty of slab routes in the Valley, The South Platte, Red rocks and other places where the gear is bolts....they are generally very runout...and other gear is not an option. But they are not sport routes.
True sport routes are designed to eliminate the majority of the "danger" and aollow the climber to focus on the body movements of the climbing. Now it can be argued that there are plenty of "unsafe" sport routes out there. However when sport climbing was originally being developed that was the intent.
There were bolted traditional lines long before sport climbing came around.

The style has little to do with it IMHO...you can put up sport routes ground up and you can rap into Traditional lines and pre work or pre place gear.

josh

I totally agree. There are cefinitely bolted trad routes. "from the ground up"
Tooth and claw is a .12c slab with 25 feet between bolts (that I probably won't do) That was developed from the ground up. Before the rap bolting revolution there were only bolts where it was needed


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 1:56 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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"I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing."

I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

If you are doing something to slow you down and require you to fiddle with something(such as drinking a gatorade, solving a crossword puzzle, or placing little camalot thingys in the rock), you are not climbing at your physical limit.


bandycoot


Aug 21, 2007, 2:01 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
"I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing."

I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

If you are doing something to slow you down and require you to fiddle with something(such as drinking a gatorade, solving a crossword puzzle, or placing little camalot thingys in the rock), you are not climbing at your physical limit.

T0-


petsfed


Aug 21, 2007, 2:43 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

No man. In fact, fuck no man. The reason I've nearly puked (and in fact have puked) on any trad climb is because the climbing is that bloody hard. Offwidth (which is the only style that really induces puking) whips the shit out of you, but if you can move upwards on it, then you absolutely have a good enough stance to place pro from, maybe even score a no-hands rest. Its just that your abs are flexing so much that you want to puke afterwards.

For virtually every other size crack, if you can figure out how to jam correctly on it, every single move is a solid clipping stance, solid enough that you can find placements easily. That or you haven't found the clipping stance.

And anyway, if all climbing was really just about pure physical difficulty, we'd all be low-ball boulderers. You don't have to be climbing at your limit to enjoy yourself.


fitzontherocks


Aug 21, 2007, 2:53 PM
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Re: [jt512] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.

That is offensive, BTW.

Jay

That is funny, BTW.


deschamps1000


Aug 21, 2007, 3:03 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit.

Not necesssarily. My hardes sport onsight is 12a and hardest trad onsight is 11c. I have found that as I become a better trad climber, gear placements become fast and efficient and no longer demand much strength.

I enjoy trad cragging because I love the movements and techniques involved in climbing cracks. I also enjoy face climbing movements but the two techniques are different.


andypro


Aug 21, 2007, 3:09 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear.


Your assuming that everyone elses definition of difficulty and achievement are the same as your own.

Sport climbing was developed the way it has been to remove the logistics from the climb so the climber can concentrate on the movement. It doesn't remove the thought required for the climb, but changes what kind of thinking is required.

Trad climbing is a lot more "brain busy". You have to put thought not only into your current position, but everything that you have done and possibly will do on that particular pitch. It all has to work together as a system, and that system must contain the thought and experience of the climber. This is all on top of the actual climbing itself.

To me, that is a much greater accomplishment, as a whole, than climbing the biggest numbers I can possibly do.

--Andy P


tradmanclimbs


Aug 21, 2007, 3:16 PM
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Nice post Andy.


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 3:37 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
For virtually every other size crack [ie, except off-width], if you can figure out how to jam correctly on it, every single move is a solid clipping stance, solid enough that you can find placements easily.

That statement is doubly absurd because (1) not every move is a solid clipping stance and (2) not every possible clipping stance affords a good placement.

Jay


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 3:37 PM
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Re: [fitzontherocks] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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fitzontherocks wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.

That is offensive, BTW.

Jay

That is funny, BTW.

It wasn't meant to be.

Jay


dingus


Aug 21, 2007, 3:49 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Just because you can't climb at your physical limit when you're trad climbing doesn't mean that others don't. I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing. As you said yourself, you don't understand. The questions is, have you TRIED to understand? It's really not that hard...

My hardest trad and sport onsights are probably both 5.12a, and my hardest sport redpoint is only 2 letter grades harder than my hardest trad redpoint. Doesn't seem to keep me very far from climbing at my physical limit. In fact, I'd say I am climbing at my physical limit.

Self sufficiency. Climbing mountains. Doing wild climbs in remote areas.

A sport climber is forever beholden to the Route Developer. Sport climbing cannot be done without modification to the rock. Its an urban pursuit.

Nothing wrong with that per se, mind you. But sport climbing is a one trick pony.

DMT


djride


Aug 21, 2007, 3:59 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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All of my favourite sends are trad sends. Yes, I can lead about 3 letter grades higher on edgy bolted face than I can on trad splitters and on massively run out trad slab (by massively run out I mean gear placements as much as 20m apart- not 3 m like some sport climbers take as scary). But, I have made moves in trad climbing that I would have failed on in sport - because my risk assessment told me I had to make the move given the #3 rp i would hit from 5 metres up). I have taken a 20' fall onto a not-so-good but best available .5 camalot placement, with 500 feet of exposure below me, smiled as it did its job and caught me anyway, and then had to make that same move onto the same piece of now well-worked protection minutes later. That's what trad climbing is about, and that's why I find it more rewarding than sport. If climbing is about being able to tell the boys at the bar you hit that 5.13, good for you. I prefer to know that I faced real fear, made real choices, with real consequences, and got to the top of the route. For me, that is the essence of climbing - and when you are climbing trad it doesn't matter if its 5.9 or 5.11, its still one hell of an accomplishment when you walk off at the top.


dingus


Aug 21, 2007, 4:02 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

This makes the value judgement that placing pro isn't part of climbing. And it isn't I suppose, if you're beholden to faceless route setters and clipping hangers you didn't buy and place yourself.

It limits your potential in so many ways. Like a car that can only run on even paved surfaces, sure it can probably go faster than my 4wd.

Now take your Porsche turbowhatever and follow me down a sunny dirt road deep in bear country....

If you can't drive down a 4wd road you can't be *driving at your limit.*

See? Apples to oranges.

DMT

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