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runawayagain
Sep 12, 2007, 2:11 AM
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Let's suppose a situation.I am the leader,when I have built the belay station, the follower start climbing.We have two 8.3mm ropes,60 metre long.And this pitch is almost 60 meter,maybe 55 meter.The follower hit by a fall stone when he climbed for 5 or 6 meter.Now he lost his moving ablity.In this situation,I just have no more 10 meter free rope.How can I get him and help him? This question confused me for long time,could some guys give some hint/help to me?
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ajkclay
Sep 12, 2007, 2:27 AM
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... what's that I see lurking in the shadows?
it looks like... is it?
Yes... I'm sure it is; Dozens of people with loads of useful suggestions on things that have worked for them too afraid to say anything for fear of massive flamage from the resident GODs of climbing who wait licking their lips for their prey to dare suggest something without Harvard referencing, spell-checking, and using double-blind studies to test their hypothesis (es).
Who will be the first to risk being embroiled in a quote-war?
*scuttles back into shadows*
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moditup
Sep 12, 2007, 2:28 AM
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I've never taken a rescue course, so someone else probably has a better view of things. But, if I were in that position, if I were the leader, I'd probably be trailing the second rope, so just lower the climber back to the ground, so a single line rappel down to him. If the follower was carrying the second line, lower him, then rap down the lead rope, if possible.
Calling SAR is a good plan, too.
I'm sure given enough time I could figure out a way how to self-belay-downlead, but it'd probably be scary as hell.
Now, someone else chime in and tell me where I'm wrong?
I want to take a SAR course, but I'm stuck in law school right now....
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ajkclay
Sep 12, 2007, 2:35 AM
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It's a troll from the looks of things, but i'll bite differently, seeing as you are creating a situation you can imagine yourself in; try this for an exercise as it's going to be more useful to you (if it really is a serious q) and to others out there:
Think about how you would do it if you really were in the situation and post a reply with your solution.
Then the position taken by the eventual critics can be to teach you (and others) how to do it better.
If it happened to you tomorrow and no-one had repiled to this thread and your second's life was on the line what would you do?
Cheers
Adam
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dan2see
Sep 12, 2007, 2:37 AM
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First of all, at 60 meters, you won't hear your guy, you won't see him either. You won't know that he was hit by a rock. You might not even detect his weight, if the rock friction is high. The only thing you will know for sure is that he started to move, then stopped.
All you can do at first, is to wait for a few minutes. He might be fixing a rope tangle.
When you decide to go back down, your procedure will be:
1. Make sure you are attached to your belay anchor, using slings, not your ropes.
2. Tie off the belay, possibly to your sling anchor, and get your hands free.
3. Re-tie the ropes for a rappell, using a normal rappell knot through anchor bolts or gear. And now the belay can come off because the ropes are fixed.
4. Put yourself on rappell. Double-check both you and him. Take yourself off the anchor, and rappell down.
In this scenario, you will find your friend, hanging at the end of the ropes, unconcious and bleeding. You are still on rappell, above your buddy.
But with 60 meters of rope, with two bodies stretching it, you will have sunk at least to your previous belay.
5. Anchor your partner there (and you, too, separately). Pull down your ropes. You might leave some gear up there, so let it go.
6. Rappell down the rest of the mountain, until you can hike out for rescue.
----ooo----
In my version of this rescue, you don't actually rescue your partner. You escape to get help. Maybe somebody else can be more complete?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Edited to add this P.S.)
P.S. The OP is not a troll, you should look at Wikipedia article about "Troll"
In reply to: An Internet troll is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrarAn Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.
It's a simple puzzle, posed by a new poster.
OK I bit. His username is a giveaway, and his empty profile is suspicious. Also this is his first-ever post.
But I bit, and here I am, showing off my new knowledge that I read in a book, "Climbing Self-Rescue" by Tyson and Loomis. Well I intend to use this knowledge on my next outing, ... so there! Ha Ha to the OP and to you guys, too.
(This post was edited by dan2see on Sep 12, 2007, 2:53 AM)
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runawayagain
Sep 12, 2007, 2:39 AM
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moditup wrote: I've never taken a rescue course, so someone else probably has a better view of things. But, if I were in that position, if I were the leader, I'd probably be trailing the second rope, so just lower the climber back to the ground, so a single line rappel down to him. If the follower was carrying the second line, lower him, then rap down the lead rope, if possible. In reply to: Let me give more information: We are working on the second pitch of the whole line.So I can not lower the climber back to the grund(AKA I do have so much free rope). So how can I get him and lower to groud together?
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moditup
Sep 12, 2007, 2:55 AM
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runawayagain wrote: moditup wrote: I've never taken a rescue course, so someone else probably has a better view of things. But, if I were in that position, if I were the leader, I'd probably be trailing the second rope, so just lower the climber back to the ground, so a single line rappel down to him. If the follower was carrying the second line, lower him, then rap down the lead rope, if possible. In reply to: Let me give more information: We are working on the second pitch of the whole line.So I can not lower the climber back to the grund(AKA I do have so much free rope). So how can I get him and lower to groud together? If i were really stupid and desperate (READ: this is not real advice. Don't take this advice) I suppose you could lower climber till he's just hanging off your harness (ouch) and then rap while holding his weight. Of course, this would suck immensely. There are still logistic issues, but it could potentially work?
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gobennyjo
Sep 12, 2007, 2:55 AM
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To me it would make sense to tie him off to one of the ropes on the two lines give some slack in the other one so it would not be tight and tie it off. Rappel down on the one he is not wieghted on. Help him, from there you could get it right? Sounds like a Majid Questiion
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ajkclay
Sep 12, 2007, 2:56 AM
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Dan2see summed it up pretty well, with the extra information of being on the second pitch there's also a good chance that you could lower your partner to the ground as well.
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ajkclay
Sep 12, 2007, 3:02 AM
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dan2see wrote: It's a simple puzzle, posed by a new poster. OK I bit. His username is a giveaway, and his empty profile is suspicious. Also this is his first-ever post.
dan2see wrote: Well I intend to use this knowledge on my next outing, ... so there! Ha Ha to the OP and to you guys, too.
... in that case, I feel sorry for the poor dude you intend to drop a rock on 
Cheers Dan 
Adam
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runawayagain
Sep 12, 2007, 3:41 AM
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Hi Dan2see ,thank you for your information.
In reply to: 1. Make sure you are attached to your belay anchor, using slings, not your ropes. 2. Tie off the belay, possibly to your sling anchor, and get your hands free. 3. Re-tie the ropes for a rappell, using a normal rappell knot through anchor bolts or gear. And now the belay can come off because the ropes are fixed. 4. Put yourself on rappell. Double-check both you and him. Take yourself off the anchor, and rappell down. In this scenario, you will find your friend, hanging at the end of the ropes, unconcious and bleeding. You are still on rappell, above your buddy. But with 60 meters of rope, with two bodies stretching it, you will have sunk at least to your previous belay. 5. Anchor your partner there (and you, too, separately). Pull down your ropes. You might leave some gear up there, so let it go. 6. Rappell down the rest of the mountain, until you can hike out for rescue.
I just new to Rock Climbing forum and trad climbing.And I plan to start my first trad vacation in next month,So I want to know more.
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dan2see
Sep 12, 2007, 4:13 AM
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runawayagain wrote: In this procedure,when I get my partner and belay him on our previous belay,then I have to climb back to get my rope? I think I have to use one rope to carry the weight of my partner,then tie another rope on the anchor,then use this rope to rappel.
In your description, you were not clear whether your "two ropes" is a pair of twins, or you are climbing on one, and hauling up the second one. It does not matter.
In reply to: 2. Tie off the belay, possibly to your sling anchor, and get your hands free.
In reply to: 3. Re-tie the ropes for a rappell, using a normal rappell knot through anchor bolts or gear. And now the belay can come off because the ropes are fixed.
You end up with both ropes hanging down from the anchor, and they are tied together with an EDK knot.
Your partner is still belayed on these two ropes, and you can rappell down.
I forget about your partner's weight on the rappell. It will stop you. So what I would do is use a prusik instead (no rappell) and downclimb, sliding the prusik as you go.
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glytch
Sep 12, 2007, 4:18 AM
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dan2see wrote: First of all, at 60 meters, you won't hear your guy, you won't see him either. You won't know that he was hit by a rock. You might not even detect his weight, if the rock friction is high. The only thing you will know for sure is that he started to move, then stopped. All you can do at first, is to wait for a few minutes. He might be fixing a rope tangle. When you decide to go back down, your procedure will be: 1. Make sure you are attached to your belay anchor, using slings, not your ropes. 2. Tie off the belay, possibly to your sling anchor, and get your hands free. 3. Re-tie the ropes for a rappell, using a normal rappell knot through anchor bolts or gear. And now the belay can come off because the ropes are fixed. 4. Put yourself on rappell. Double-check both you and him. Take yourself off the anchor, and rappell down. In this scenario, you will find your friend, hanging at the end of the ropes, unconcious and bleeding. You are still on rappell, above your buddy. But with 60 meters of rope, with two bodies stretching it, you will have sunk at least to your previous belay. 5. Anchor your partner there (and you, too, separately). Pull down your ropes. You might leave some gear up there, so let it go. 6. Rappell down the rest of the mountain, until you can hike out for rescue. ----ooo---- In my version of this rescue, you don't actually rescue your partner. You escape to get help. Maybe somebody else can be more complete? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Edited to add this P.S.) P.S. The OP is not a troll, you should look at Wikipedia article about "Troll" In reply to: An Internet troll is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrarAn Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response. It's a simple puzzle, posed by a new poster. OK I bit. His username is a giveaway, and his empty profile is suspicious. Also this is his first-ever post. But I bit, and here I am, showing off my new knowledge that I read in a book, "Climbing Self-Rescue" by Tyson and Loomis. Well I intend to use this knowledge on my next outing, ... so there! Ha Ha to the OP and to you guys, too.
Question: If the second is weighting the ropes, how do you rappel on them? I can see letting one of the ropes go slack while tying the other one off and then rapping on the slack rope. What would you do if you had led on a single and didn't have another rope to rap on?
... This seems like a reasonable and interesting question, though the wording is notably majidian.
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dan2see
Sep 12, 2007, 4:41 AM
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Good point Glytch!
You might have missed my correction above:
dan2see wrote: I forget about your partner's weight on the rappell. It will stop you. So what I would do is use a prusik instead (no rappell) and downclimb, sliding the prusik as you go.
The two ropes are not fixed to the anchor above, one is threaded through the anchor, and the other is tied on the first. You wrap your prusik around both ropes together.
Actually I don't know how easy the safety would be, downclimbing a vertical wall. But there are alternative types of friction knots, and you should know some.
(This post was edited by dan2see on Sep 12, 2007, 4:45 AM)
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trundlebum
Sep 16, 2007, 7:31 PM
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Great thread.
You can descend a rope with weight on it. You can do a very simple carabiner rappel, backed up with a prusik knot. By simple carabiner rappel I mean even less then a single biner break. Just make a couple wraps around the backbone of locker (which you can setup while a rope is under heavy tension). Of course, backing it up with a prusik if you don't have ascenders.
If it were a wall and you had ascenders, it's a good idea to use a prusik above the ascender so that when you did reach the partner/victim you already have in place, more tie/re-tie, weight/re-weight options available to you when aiding the victim immediately upon reaching them.
As 'glytch' says:
"In my version of this rescue, you don't actually rescue your partner. You escape to get help. Maybe somebody else can be more complete?"
This would be the obvious choice (to leave your partner in search of help) in most remote, two person party, ascents.
I may be making things way to hypothetical for furthering discussion, but what if:
You have communication with a medivac chopper, they are on the way. It can land in the meadow below you in 30 minutes, however they will not be able to help you other than from the top of the scree to the chopper. It would take a day to get further rescue manpower to the site. You must get your partner to the base of the climb.
What to do ?
I always thought (thank god I never had to find out) that I would then need to get my partner somehow, securely on my back and rappel for both of us.
(assuming that the wall is not overhanging in which case the victim could be lowered)
I have never practiced this (rap'n with a victim) but I have thought it would make sense to rig the rappel harness (for the two of you) in a manner where the victim's weight is the primary focus, not yours.
Much like lowering a litter with attendants at each end. The litter is on the rap device/s first then the attendants.
You would need the victim on your back for your own mobility and control but you would not want the rappel device/s to take your weight and you support the victim, just the opposite.
I have never given much thought to how I would go about rigging all this so I am curious what others think?
A good argument for having plenty slings handy on longer, and especially the more remote trad climbs.
In this scenario an once of prevention could be worth a death's prevention.
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wenclg1
Sep 16, 2007, 7:43 PM
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Duh, duh, dumb, dumb, just downclimb! Tie him off, and down climb, or free solo the rest of the climb, who wants sombody to slow you down anyway.
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jaybro
Sep 16, 2007, 7:56 PM
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Troll or not, one of the better threads here.
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altelis
Sep 16, 2007, 8:01 PM
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there is a really easy way to lower with a victim.
set up your rappel in a manner that actually lets you lower (so through two bail biners and not a rap ring----its a rescue at this point, sacrifice some gear for safety).
attach a prussik on the rope directly above your injured partners harness (leaving them tied in)
clip this prussik via a sling to your harness
manuever so that you are between them and the rock with them straddling your back. make sure you are comfy and your legs are well positioned to act as a shock absorber. adjust the height of the prussik so that you are comfortable.
rappel. you pull on their end of the rope because of the prussik. depending on the belay device you may need to add extra friction.
i'll leave it to you to figure out how to set up the lower from the high anchor, get on rappel. once you are next to your partner, just tie off with a muenter mule to go hands free.
handy trick.
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trundlebum
Sep 16, 2007, 8:17 PM
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Good advice.
So essentially your saying, you tie off a convenient distance above their harness and then actually lower (not really rappel) the two of you ? |
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altelis
Sep 16, 2007, 8:24 PM
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exactly. it means that there is a lot more friction in the system to ease lowering.
it also means there is a handy and "not moving" (at least in relation to you) point a short distance above you to "fix" the victim to. this allows the victim to be part of a SIMPLE safety system AND allows for ease of carry (your back and your strong legs as a shock absorber).
if you want a really good practice scenario, set up a top rope. have the climber weight the rope about 30 feet up. tie off the belay device and ascend the rope. it takes some skill and finesse to ascend the rope and not let them drop any. once at your partner, set up the lower system i described and lower both of you to the ground.
again, handy trick and an easy way to practice.
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dynoho
Sep 16, 2007, 10:00 PM
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ajkclay wrote: ... what's that I see lurking in the shadows? it looks like... is it? Yes... I'm sure it is;
Yes it is. Painfully obvious. Go ahead and name him. This site has become tedious since he learned to proxy.
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trundlebum
Sep 16, 2007, 10:04 PM
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Yes that makes much more sense then trying an actual rappel.
Ok great idea (practise always is).
In describing the practise though you have thrown a new twist into the thread. The thread started with the question of reaching a disabled partner who was seconding. I had taken it a bit further with "what to do if lowering was mandatory?".
So you've established just what you mean when you say --> "once at your partner, set up the lower system i described and lower both of you to the ground. "
However the way you worded your practise senario "... practice scenario, set up a top rope. have the climber weight the rope about 30 feet up." It sounds like now we would be trying to aide an injured leader that has taken a leader fall?
This is very different circumstances leading up to the lowering of the victim. It makes no diffrence but I would like to understand your practise suggestion a little more.
Where you say --> "tie off the belay device and ascend the rope. it takes some skill and finesse to ascend the rope and not let them drop any"
Would you please expound on how you would 'acend the rope'?
Is this to say you would tie off the belay and use prusiks on the rope going from the belay anchor to the top piece in order to gain the victim?
This thread began with the tagline "how to help the following climber".
It has morphed now into ---> How to help an injured leader.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1680949#1680949
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altelis
Sep 17, 2007, 2:52 AM
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its easiest to ascend the rope with a prussik attached via long sling to your waist and a grigri. but be creative if you need to.
as for helping a follower. thats actually a lot easier. if you are belaying the leader up from your waist than by god i hope you are using a redirect (its just a whole lot more comfortable). just make sure your redirect is backed up, rapp the rope the belay device is on using your partner as a counter-weight, and there you go.
if you're belaying the follower directly from the anchor its only a little more complicated. tie the rope off (as you would while escaping the belay--you should know this much, not going into it here) with a mule knot, only leave the mule knot a little loose and keep the long sling with a prussik on the rope attached to both the rope and the anchor via a munter mule. now attach yourself to the loose brake side of the rope with your belay device. remain attached to anchor as well. release the mule from the climbing rope and cinch up the belay device nice and taught. undo your attachment to the anchor and finally, while maintaining tension on the rope, undo the munter mule from the prussik and undo the prussik. ok no you are ready to rapp to your injured follower.
that was REALLY complicated to write out, the actual process isn't nearly as bad----which is why i wanted to skip that description in the first place. oh well. any questions?
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