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thomasribiere
Sep 11, 2007, 9:40 PM
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The question is "can I find some equivalent product made elsewhere"? In Europe, the answer is yes : the main manufacturing countries for clothes besides China are Turkey and Tunisia. Whose Human Rights respect is world famous... So, Chinese or Turkish...
The second question is "do I really need to buy that product"? or asked differently "Don't I already own a similar product"? Often, the answer is yes. But I sometimes buy something new though I still could use a little older item. I guess, despite my "wisdom", that sometimes I "need" to buy something.
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majid_sabet
Sep 11, 2007, 9:42 PM
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camhead wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The American flag is made in China The American flag is made in China The American flag is made in China The American flag is made in China Actually, the majority of American flags are still home-produced; 60% or so, from what I recall hearing on a recent NPR segment. Here's the largest manufacturer in the world. http://www.annin.com
Last year during an important govenrment
Ceremony, I was given a pin and a patch by the highest authority in state of California ( the Goveror's office) . Both were made in China.
A patch with a Californian Black Bear but made in China.
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extreme_actuary
Sep 11, 2007, 9:42 PM
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The reason we outsource is to save money. Why does it save money? It saves money because it allows US companies to circumvent the US's minimum wage and pollution laws. That is the only reason why companies outsource.
People say "if they want to work for $X/hour, let them work." If we got rid of the minimum wage in the US, there would be people willing to work for less. It doesn't mean it is appropriate to pay below humane wages.
What would be logical is to require US companies to pay by US minimum wage standards, regardless of the country where the workers reside. They should also follow the US's pollution standards. I would like to see how many companies continue to outsource.
Another thing, people often argue that outsourcing is the same as the mechanization that took place during the industrial revolution. That is absolutely absurd. That mechanization brought on technological advancements and created more jobs than it eliminated. The outsourcing does nothing but eliminate US jobs. These profits go to increasing the stock price, not improving technology and hiring more US workers.
(This post was edited by extreme_actuary on Sep 11, 2007, 9:43 PM)
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hopperhopper
Sep 11, 2007, 9:45 PM
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camhead wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The American flag is made in China The American flag is made in China The American flag is made in China The American flag is made in China Actually, the majority of American flags are still home-produced; 60% or so, from what I recall hearing on a recent NPR segment. Here's the largest manufacturer in the world. http://www.annin.com
statistic-owned?
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rmsusa
Sep 11, 2007, 10:31 PM
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dingus wrote: Its not about China (even though it is). Its about putting short term economic welfare ahead of environmental concerns, etc. ...
I don't think that's right. Everything we know about societies says that the more developed they are, the cleaner they are. It seems to follow that the more we do to help them develop, the better they'll treat the environment. This is a true, (maybe the only) long-term solution to pollution.
The best way to help them develop, IMHO, is to employ their people in productive enterprise. As the developing world moves up the value chain, metal-bashing becomes way less desireable an activity. It should be done by people with less skill. Maybe they live elsewhere.
Now China, mostly through manufacturing for companies in the developed world, has raised over 100 million people out of abject poverty (under $1/day) in the last decade. Regardless of environmental effects, I'm incredibly happy to have participated in such a human development project. As more people come to live better lives, they'll get indoor plumbing, perhaps refrigeration and lighting and heating that doesn't depend on burning dung in the middle of a shack. All these things are way better for the environment than what they had before.
As the middle class develops, they'll demand cleaner conditions in their surroundings and push for more environmental controls on industry. We already see this movement developing in China.
Food for thought.
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dingus
Sep 11, 2007, 10:48 PM
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rmsusa wrote: As more people come to live better lives, they'll get indoor plumbing, perhaps refrigeration and lighting and heating that doesn't depend on burning dung in the middle of a shack. All these things are way better for the environment than what they had before. As the middle class develops, they'll demand cleaner conditions in their surroundings and push for more environmental controls on industry. We already see this movement developing in China. Food for thought.
All valid points. But way beyond the scope of climbing gear discussions. Feel free to hook me up on this topic in community. I'll be happy to discuss the both sides of the China USA equation (no equal signs are involved so its not an equation yet anyway)
But from an enviro standard, any company that feigns GREEN or ENVIRO this or that, and that company imports products from China? They are putting economic welfare ahead of environment, simple as that.
DMT
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ajkclay
Sep 11, 2007, 11:52 PM
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mturner wrote: What's that I smell? PIC OF SOAP BOX This threads about to be moved.
Ha ha! No mate, just making fun of folks who like to get on one over a single point while ignoring all the things they conveniently ignore 
Actually, the original point was a good one as Dingus reminds us ^^^
The way I read it is more a thread on corporate hypocrisy, but then lotsa folk like to misinterpret and thread hijack etc...
The reality and fairer comparison on China is probably (note the lack of use of absolutes here folks) to liken it and all the other developing nations to western human rights and enviromental procedures from a hundred years ago...
You know, just because we are all so amazingly squeaky clean now (  ) does not mean we didn't go through the same development period as they are now... kinda like criticising your baby brother for crapping in his nappy when you know it's not the best way to go about things.
Cheers
Adam
edited because the pic was gone :)
(This post was edited by ajkclay on Sep 11, 2007, 11:53 PM)
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maxclimber1w
Sep 12, 2007, 2:18 AM
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rmsusa: I think i would disagree with your first point.
from wikipedia carbon emmisions per country: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions)
rank country thousands metric tons worldwide percentage
1 United States 6,049,435 22.2 %
2 China 5,010,170 18.4 %
- European Union 3,115,125 11.4 %
3 Russia 1,524,993 5.6 %
4 India 1,342,962 4.9 %
5 Japan 1,257,963 4.6 %
6 Germany 808,767 3.0 %
7 Canada 639,403 2.3 %
8 United Kingdom 587,261 2.2 %
9 South Korea 465,643 1.7 %
10 Italy [6] 449,948 1.7 %
11 Mexico 438,022 1.6 %
12 South Africa 437,032 1.6 %
13 Iran 433,571 1.6 %
14 Indonesia 378,250 1.4 %
15 France [7] 373,693 1.4 %
16 Brazil 331,795 1.2 %
17 Spain 330,497 1.2 %
18 Ukraine 330,039 1.2 %
19 Australia 326,757 1.2 %
20 Saudi Arabia 308,393 1.1 %
If you look at the bottom of the list at the link, you will see that the less developed countries tend to be the lowest C02 emitters. None of the countries on the list here could be considered not developed.
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maxclimber1w
Sep 12, 2007, 2:30 AM
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@j_ung: as i said earlier, I'm not perfect. But I am trying to become more aware of the situation, consume with more responsibility, and cause some discussion.
@purplesage: dude, if you have nothing to say why even post?
@reno: I know you're joking, but take the net taxes on every chinese outdoor product since 1950? We're talking millions and millions.
@bentgate: definitely support an embargo on China till they clean up the act. Cuba's actions can't really compare to the oppression in China, in my opinion.
@dingus: yes, thanks for keeping this on track. This is about the personal decisions made by our companies.
@thomas: just so! Maybe we should have a sticky thread of environmentally and human rights responsible companies and products?
The point is, importing products from China (and many other places) often violates human rights, causes environmental harm (both in production and shipping), and supports bad practices.
longs posts, sorry
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fitzontherocks
Sep 12, 2007, 2:46 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Ceremony, I was given a pin and a patch by the highest authority in state of California ( the Goveror's office) . Both were made in China. A patch with a Californian Black Bear but made in China.
Wait, first you said all American flags are made in China, now you're saying it's just California pins? Well, duh. California IS closer to China than most of the country.
Check this: http://www.flagandbanner.com/ Look just above the jump. Seems they make their own flags right here in the US of A, which would make your broad assumption... what's the word here...? WRONG. Dammit, quit generalizing, Major. It's not as funny as it used to be.
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eastvillage
Sep 12, 2007, 3:18 AM
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The primary motivation is greed. Most gear was made in the US up until the late 80's or so. I have several Patagonia clothing items from that era that were manufactured here, super high quality and a price that was no different from what these same companies charge for the same stuff made in China. Their supposed ethics and environmental policies are all BS.
Sadly BD is choosing to go this route with their protection, too.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/climbing_gear_discussion/black_diamond_gear_protection_made_in_china/106015512__1
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carabiner96
Sep 12, 2007, 3:20 AM
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So we've agreed there's a problem.
So what are you going to do about it?
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eastvillage
Sep 12, 2007, 3:47 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: So we've agreed there's a problem. So what are you going to do about it?
I buy US whenever possible and will soon switch to metolius for cams.
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maxclimber1w
Sep 12, 2007, 5:53 AM
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We all try, to the best of our ability, to buy locally made products, and to abstain from any products made in China. Ask yourself, "do I really need this?" Read tags.
I think it would also be cool if there was a front page article on environmental and human rights issues and climbing/outdoor companies. At the very least, as I said earlier, a sticky thread in this forum discussing the ethics and practices of various companies would be a start. Admins?
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j_ung
Sep 12, 2007, 1:40 PM
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In general, RC.com doesn't solicit articles. (There are exceptions for things like gear reviews.)
I think you should go ahead and write it. I'm certainly interested in reading it. I have some advice, though. Instead of listing companies that manufacture in developing nations, which would be exhaustive, list those that do manufacture in the countries where most people buy their wares.
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coach_kyle
Sep 12, 2007, 2:35 PM
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We can hope that a few western companies that manufacture in China are doing so with the environment and labor ethics in mind. This would, in the long run, force other companies to do the same to compete for workers. However, I seriously doubt that this is happening on any sizable scale. It would be something to pressure companies to do, though - cleaning up their operations in China rather than leaving altogether. The Chinese workers need jobs, too - better ones than they are being offered now.
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maxclimber1w
Sep 12, 2007, 7:18 PM
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I'm interested. I'm about to start school at Western Washington University in a week, so this would be a more long term project. Anyone interested in helping in any way? Does anybody have contact info for some companies off the top of their head (beyond the main phoneline)?
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majid_sabet
Sep 12, 2007, 7:41 PM
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Hold on to your biners, cams and especially your rope cause once they become made in CHINA ,there will be no more QA.
Buy and hide the last remaining good European and American made climbing gear.
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rmsusa
Sep 12, 2007, 7:56 PM
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In reply to: rmsusa: I think i would disagree with your first point. from wikipedia carbon emmisions per country:
Those numbers are interesting, but not, IMHO, particularly enlightening. I have a hard time believing that anybody has a handle on carbon emissions in Bolivia or Mali. Even if the numbers had some hope of being in the right range, they depend on so many compounded factors that's it's hard to know what they even mean.
For instance, given the same level of development (i.e., standard of living), countries with fewer people will have lower emissions. Is it a population measure? Given two countries with the same population, the emissions will depend on standard of living (cars, electricity, sewage treatment, etc) differences. Is it a measure of standard of living?
In the developing world, it's really hard to get any kind of a handle on carbon emissions at all. If half your population lives without any source of energy except burning things they pick up in the woods(basically everyone on less than USD $1.00 per day) how do you deal with that. Go to:
http://iresearch.worldbank.org/PovcalNet/jsp/index.jsp
to see where and how these people live.
As a goal, I think we'd like to see all the people of the world living decent lives while being as efficient as possible with energy and polluting as little as possible.
So... The emissions of a country like Bolivia MUST rise to the point where they can treat all their water and sewage and provide energy to their populations for lighting, heat and refrigeration, all of which are part of living a decent life that we, here in the first world, sometimes forget that people don't have. In the developing world, holding emissions constant isn't a real option. It would condemn them to horrible living conditions.
Let's help them do it in efficient and non-polluting ways. I think you'll have to agree that cooking on a modern range is way more energy efficient than cooking over an open fire. Refrigerating food may raise emissions, but it will cut down on intestinal difficulties which are a prime source of infant mortality.
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plund
Sep 12, 2007, 8:24 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Hold on to your biners, cams and especially your rope cause once they become made in CHINA ,there will be no more QA. Buy and hide the last remaining good European and American made climbing gear.
When the time comes to hang the decadent West, a Chinese company will manufacture the rope...but the rope will probably break...
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shockabuku
Sep 12, 2007, 8:50 PM
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fitzontherocks wrote: ... Dammit, quit generalizing, Major. It's not as funny as it used to be.
You shouldn't use that as an insult, it's disrespectful to people who don't deserve it.
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aarong
Sep 12, 2007, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: Maybe we should have a sticky thread of environmentally and human rights responsible companies and products?
I was thinking the same thing - I second this.
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shimanilami
Sep 12, 2007, 10:16 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Hold on to your biners, cams and especially your rope cause once they become made in CHINA ,there will be no more QA.
Why would you say such a thing? If CE/UIAA are prerequisites for climbing gear to be accepted in the marketplace - which is becoming more and more the case - then any company that hopes to successfully sell "Made in China" equipment will implement those measures necessary to obtain these certifications. And in terms of quality, those certifications mean a hell of a lot more than any "Made in the USA" label.
It may be made using child labor and toxic chemicals, but it will be good quality ... and cheap.
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shimanilami
Sep 12, 2007, 10:40 PM
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Patagonia is not on the list. Is that right?
Interestingly, I heard an interview with Yvon Chouinard many years ago in which he stated unabashedly that Patagonia uses enviro-friendly manufacturing methods because it makes for good marketing, not because of his or any other shareholders' altruistic sensibilities. In a nutshell, he stated that outdoor enthusiasts are more likely to buy enviro-friendly products, so that's what Patagonia makes.
I couldn't care less where something is made (and frankly, some poor dude in China is likely to pollute a lot less the same guy in the U.S.A., with his SUV, air conditioner, etc.) If it works well and is better for the environment than other products, then I'm all for it. So Yvon's argument works for me.
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eastvillage
Sep 12, 2007, 10:45 PM
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shimanilami wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Hold on to your biners, cams and especially your rope cause once they become made in CHINA ,there will be no more QA. Why would you say such a thing? If CE/UIAA are prerequisites for climbing gear to be accepted in the marketplace - which is becoming more and more the case - then any company that hopes to successfully sell "Made in China" equipment will implement those measures necessary to obtain these certifications. And in terms of quality, those certifications mean a hell of a lot more than any "Made in the USA" label. It may be made using child labor and toxic chemicals, but it will be good quality ... and cheap.
BS all the way. US and European companies invented the modern sport of rock climbing. The Chinese are non-players in this area. Chinese gear will be dangerous and will not cost a dime less.
Believe it.
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