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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 7:40 AM
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Hi!
I teach a climbing class in our local gym. I teach 6+& year olds. They are all proficient lead climbers/belayers (as long as they only belay kids their own size) and we have been working on topping out climbs and anchors lately.
All my kids are hungry to learn more - especially the rope work and learn and remember skills so fast that i am running out of things to teach them.
I am a bit worried that we are moving too fast though - maybe we should just be concentrating on movement on rock and learning technique but they are just so keen and are gearing up for an (outdoor) climbing trip next month. 
What do you guys think? Are my 6 + 7 year olds too young for lead climbing outdoors or ill they just get hurt?
Thanks!
Wiki
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JAB
Sep 13, 2007, 7:52 AM
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The younger the better! Make sure to learn them how to use nuts & cams and the thrill of running it out and in no time you can all go soloing Stolby style. 
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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 7:56 AM
Post #3 of 69
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lol I wish! nothing but bolts as far as the eye can see round here!
Thanks for your advice... its what i was thinking too!
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abock33
Sep 13, 2007, 8:56 AM
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Go for it. You're teaching the next Caldwell, Hill and Sharma.
I know i don't have to mention this but, redundancy never hurts... Keep a keen eye on them. I know how I used to act when I was 7.
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overlord
Sep 13, 2007, 10:48 AM
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definitely not too young, but you do need to keep an eye on them
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bizarrodrinker
Sep 13, 2007, 11:20 AM
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That's a tough one. I guess if its cool with their parents though. I think a lot of them might be pretty freaked out about their kids leading outside at that age.
But if its very heavily supervised (like a person for each belayer) I would say go for it. Fact is kids get more excited outside so they are more likely to forget certain important things.
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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 11:40 AM
Post #7 of 69
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bizarrodrinker wrote: That's a tough one. I guess if its cool with their parents though. I think a lot of them might be pretty freaked out about their kids leading outside at that age. But if its very heavily supervised (like a person for each belayer) I would say go for it. Fact is kids get more excited outside so they are more likely to forget certain important things.
Hehehe... their (non climbing) parents are almost more excited about the trip away than the kids! They are fighting over who is going to be in charge of food, transport, tents etc... great to have such accepting parents!
I was thinking a back-up belayer and an anchor person for each belayer (keep the non-climbers occupied too) and also an instructor at the top to help with their topping out.
Thanks all for your help, it is helping put my mind at rest...
Now what do I do when they beg to practice their top-rope rescues?!
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mikes
Sep 13, 2007, 1:06 PM
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Hi Wiki,
my daughter just started to lead climb and she is 10. Some things you need to keep in mind. For kids this small routes are very run out and they have trouble making clips. Kids are top heavy and slim (most of them ) around the hips. If they get turned up side down they will slip out off their harness. A chest harness combined with a usual climbing harness is a must. Kids that age will take much "harder" leader falls compared to an adult. They are very light and do not have enough weight to take advantage of the rope elongation. They will generate high G forces and a fall for them is very static. One should only use a new rope with the smallest possible diameter. Small diameter ropes are better in terms of impact force. I am assuming you have kids climbing helmets.
All this considered I don't think parents would give you their consent. Keep the kids on a top rope for a couple more years. Or have them practice some lead climbing with a top rope back up. This way they can practice clipping.
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stefanohatari
Sep 13, 2007, 1:12 PM
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I also work in a gym where climbing team kids as young as 8 can lead climb indoors. Some questions:
1. Are you, the kids, and their parents mentally prepared for the time when one of the kids gets hurt in a lead fall? (The chances of injury are greater outdoors).
2. Is everyone aware of the additional risks of climbing outdoors? (weather, insects, falling rock, etc.)
3. Will the kids be technically and mentally prepared for the greater spacing between clips that you find outdoors? For cold shuts? For rapping off of anchors or clipping your own draws? For downclimbing?
4. Have the parents/guardians filled out a waiver form that informs them of the above, and releases you from liability for the increased risk?
If the answers are yes, then go for it.
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 3:35 PM
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I think the answer to your question lies within a few, very important, variables.
1. These kids are really young - babies really. Are they MATURE enough to take on the role of leading outdoors? Some kids are and some aren't.
2. What ratings are you going to have them on? Are their first outdoor climbs going to be 5.5 -5.7, or are they going to be much harder?
3. Gym and outdoor climbing are two entirely different environments (and for this age group, different means threatening usually) and there is a possibility your kids could get hit with a mild case of agoraphobia once on that rock. The wind might be blowing, the sun might get pretty hot, then there is the view and putting distance into the context of the whole scene could result in a fear frozen baby half way up the rock, making it difficult for you to lower them. Not saying this is the case, but I've seen it before.
If it were me, I think I would not have them lead outdoors in this situation. If you only had, say, two kids to deal with - then you could play it out by ear and let them test their metal on something very straight forward. However, you have more than that. I'm assuming you have between 6 and 10 kids? Let them lead practice with a top rope and definitely back up the belays with an experienced adult for each child belaying.
I'm not saying that your kids are NOT qualified at all. After all, Layne Kopischka's daughters were leading the hard stuff at Veedauwoo by the time they were 8 and 9 - they had been climbing there with their dad since they could walk and never climbed in a gym to my knowledge, so that was their normal.
Just be cautious since this is the their first time out. See how they do on top ropes first :)
What most everyone else has said here is very good advice too :)
God Bless,
mik
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Carnage
Sep 13, 2007, 3:45 PM
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in regards to your question about moving too fast and learning to move on the rock.
all of the classes I've taken have been "how to not die while rock climbing" not really "how to climb 5.12's". its a lot easier (and safer) to figure out how to pull the crux of a climb than it is to figure out how to equalize a 3 point anchor. especially with kids, they will get all the climbing parts by themselves, they wont get the saftey stuff.
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angry
Sep 13, 2007, 4:06 PM
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I don't think they should lead.
I have a 16 YO brother, I'm 29. When I first took him climbing he was probably about 6. Maybe younger. I haven't lived at home most of his life and it's been difficult to get consistent miles on the rock with him. Several years ago he asked me if he could lead a route (trad, probably offwidth). I wouldn't let him I thought he was just too young. As he's getting older and smarter, it's time to get him on the sharp end. It'll be a slow process.
Now I was leading maybe the 3rd time I ever tied in. The difference is that no-one was the expert, no-one was responsible for my safety, and no-one would have to answer to my parents if things went wrong. As the person responsible for my baby bro, I keep it safe and keep it fun. If he wants to push himself further into climbing on his own accord, great, that's his choice to make.
I have been at the gym, just the gym, and seen kids older than yours nearly off themselves. These kids were members of the climbing team. Had led in the gym up to 5.12, bouldered probably V6. These weren't first month climbing clubbers. The kid gets on a route that is hard for him and back clips. Then he Z clips, then he gets the rope behind his leg. He lowers down and tries to get it right this time. HE CAN'T.
After multiple tries it's clear that he will not be able to climb this route safely because he cannot keep his mechanical knowledge separate from the difficulty of this route.
Outside ain't inside. It shrinks what most kids' "level" is. You are asking for trouble.
Finally, 6 years old is crazy young. I was a K-8 PE teacher for a while. I couldn't count on the little-uns to find their way to the bathroom, fold up the parachute right, or not trip over each other while standing in line. It's too young, keep climbing fun and maybe they'll get more interested later.
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 4:21 PM
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It all depends on the personality, capabilities and maturity of the individual child - and on their adult mentor, what they are prepared to deal with - but in general I very much agree with you. Like I said, Layne Kopischka's two girls were leading at young ages (before the age of 10) and he was taking them climbing since they could walk. That was, of course, 20 years ago. His girls are now all grown up and likely have families of their own. I do not know if they still climb. They were in their early teens when Layne died - I think he had a brain anyurism in his sleep.
I know that if it were MY kids - I would be opposed to them leading at their ages (8 and 10) even in the gym. They simply do NOT have the critical thinking skills necessary for it at this time of their lives, even for something so simple as clipping a bolt on a sport rout. Let's not even get into the complexities of building a safe and equalized 3 point anchor at the top :)
God Bless,
mik
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jgloporto
Sep 13, 2007, 4:25 PM
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wiki wrote: What do you guys think? Are my 6 + 7 year olds too young for lead climbing outdoors or ill they just get hurt? Thanks! Wiki
Jesus H Christ, my six year old can't even tie his shoes...
IMO, if a kid can't write or read the words "clove hitch", then maybe leading should wait a while.
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reg
Sep 13, 2007, 4:40 PM
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bad idea
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whoa
Sep 13, 2007, 4:48 PM
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amen.
but they're not too young to wash ropes!
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desertwanderer81
Sep 13, 2007, 5:22 PM
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You should try top roping outdoors before you take them lead climbing. I'm thinking 10 trips or so outdoors, then try outdoors leading. Indoors leading should be fine, as long as you have a second person backing the belayer up at ALL times.
They may be eager....but there's nothing wrong with taking it slow. Giving them something to look forward to will only make them more excited about climbing.
Take for instance when you take it slow with a chick (or guy). If you really really want to have sex with them for a long time, when you finally have it, is it better or worse? For me it usually is much better!
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tahamsh
Sep 13, 2007, 6:21 PM
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I would take the conservative route here. It's likely the parents wouldn't comprehend the additional risks involved when they give consent -- and the responsibility would rest soley on your shoulders.
The kids could still get the "experience" by setting up mock leads (top-rope backup). That was a great suggestion.
I have a 6 and 9 year old that I have a hard enough time keeping out of trouble at the crag when they're off the rope! I like to keep the risk levels as low as possible when we're outdoors. There are too many variables.
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xtremst80
Sep 13, 2007, 6:40 PM
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I have to agree, bad idea!
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jakedatc
Sep 13, 2007, 6:43 PM
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how many kids... how many adult, certified instructors? I do not think you will have enough qualified people to do this safely. Outdoors is not the first time to be teaching people how to lead. Kids will always want to do more and more and be like the older people.. it's your job to reel them in and be responsible enough to know they are not ready. Have them mock lead while on Tr in the Gym if they want to practice new stuff..
Hell i took my 23 ish yr old friend who's been climbing for like 5 years.. boulders v5+ and he was back clipping like a fiend and had to be talked through every anchor.
This is an accident waiting to happen IMO
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 6:52 PM
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--thread hijack--
I THINK I know what it is, but what exactly is back clipping? I'm sure I would recognize it if I saw it, but I always had very good, technically adept partners to climb with, so never witnessed it personally outside any formalized classes (and I don't remember it)
A link to an illustration (preferably not Majid Sabet originals) would be sufficient :)
Thanks
--/thread hijack--
God Bless,
mik
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jakedatc
Sep 13, 2007, 6:58 PM
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Correct
Back clip
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 7:02 PM
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Thanks Jake :) yes I recognize that - just didn't remember the poor technique the term refered to :)
God Bless,
mik
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majid_sabet
Sep 13, 2007, 7:09 PM
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jakedatc wrote: how many kids... how many adult, certified instructors? I do not think you will have enough qualified people to do this safely. Outdoors is not the first time to be teaching people how to lead. Kids will always want to do more and more and be like the older people.. it's your job to reel them in and be responsible enough to know they are not ready. Have them mock lead while on Tr in the Gym if they want to practice new stuff.. Hell i took my 23 ish yr old friend who's been climbing for like 5 years.. boulders v5+ and he was back clipping like a fiend and had to be talked through every anchor. This is an accident waiting to happen IMO
A certification does not mean a sh*t in the real world. If he/she has enough confidence in properly educating his students with the most up-to-date knowledge and techniques, then I would say he is qualified to teach or manage a group of people. A certification does not release you from the liability or lawsuit .It is only to indicate that you got some level of training but it is up to you to keep yourself up to date.
My suggestion to OP
You should get a small pocket size calendar book and log your teaching activity and document how many students you have and what you teach as detail as possible. In event that sh8T hits the fan, that log book could save your as* in court of law.
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