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desertwanderer81
Sep 14, 2007, 5:23 PM
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I just realized, something that I had no idea about, but probably should:
If you have a 3 point anchor system set up, pretty decent placement. So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold?
Does anyone have any history on times it has held or has failed?
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snoopy138
Sep 14, 2007, 5:27 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I just realized, something that I had no idea about, but probably should: If you have a 3 point anchor system set up, pretty decent placement. So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold? Does anyone have any history on times it has held or has failed?
Were the anchor pieces placed by the partner whose 5-10 other placements are all now failing?
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shimanilami
Sep 14, 2007, 5:36 PM
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Paging Dr. Majid Sabet. Paging Dr. Majid Sabet ...
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j_ung
Sep 14, 2007, 5:44 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I just realized, something that I had no idea about, but probably should: If you have a 3 point anchor system set up, pretty decent placement. So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold? Does anyone have any history on times it has held or has failed?
Assuming the anchor gear is constructed well and in good stone, I would expect the anchor to hold just fine.
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legion
Sep 14, 2007, 5:48 PM
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better than the chances I'm climbing with that clown again
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the_climber
Sep 14, 2007, 5:48 PM
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I'll add some background into where this discussion is coming from.
Last Sunday there were to very experienced climbers who died while climbing Freefall on the East End of Mount Rundle, know locally as EEOR. At some point (not known what pitch) there was a fall and a catastrophic anchor failure occurred. They were found at the base the next day by a search party via chopper. The word thus far is that both climbers were roped together with one still attached to a 3 point anchor, and a limited amount of rope between the anchor and the leader. We suspect it resulted in a harsh factor 2 fall directly onto the anchors, resulting in total failure of the anchor.
Keep in mind that these two were very experienced and accomplished climbers (one of them being awarded the Snow Leopard designation for assending all 7000m peaks in the former USSR prior to moving to Canada). They were also experienced with regard to the character of the local rock (that being the Canadian Chossies).
I believe the aim of this tread should be to discuss the assessment of our anchors and learn from this accident to avoid such catastrophic failures of our most crucial point in the safety system, the anchor. And to learn what we can from this tragedy. The suggestion to start a separate thread for this discussion was made so that the original accident thread can start respectful for any family or friend who read it.
Link to accident thread
(This post was edited by the_climber on Sep 14, 2007, 5:52 PM)
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wings
Sep 14, 2007, 5:50 PM
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snoopy138 wrote: Were the anchor pieces placed by the partner whose 5-10 other placements are all now failing?
Ha ha ha.
desertwanderer81, to answer your question, it is impossible to determine what the chances are that your anchor will hold. There are too many factors to consider.
A more useful question, although still very difficult to answer without more information, is whether the amount of force on the anchor will be less than if the other pieces had never been placed to begin with. That question boils down to whether any of the energy of the fall had been dissipated by the other pieces, which I suppose is likely.
Complete anchor failures are not common, and you can probably check out Accidents in North American Mountaineering (to get a North American perspective ... not sure if there is an equivalent for other continents / nations).
- Seyil
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desertwanderer81
Sep 14, 2007, 5:52 PM
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Sounds like the answer is: flip a coin.
If a person is stripping their gear, should you just hold tight, get prepared for the worst, and hope for the best, or should is there anything you can actually do?
These aren't really questions you go over when you learn to climb origionally!
Biggest fall I've ever caught on trad was 10' or so....which is nothing compared to the 100'ers.
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kevinheiss
Sep 14, 2007, 5:54 PM
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that is a really good question. LOL
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the_climber
Sep 14, 2007, 5:55 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: Biggest fall I've ever caught on trad was 10' or so....which is nothing compared to the 100'ers.
They catch with that is the fact that many time shorter falls tend to be harsher as there is less rope in the system to reduce the forces involved.
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desertwanderer81
Sep 14, 2007, 5:59 PM
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After the first piece fails, is there anything you can do to help make sure the second piece holds?
Everything I've ever known consists of what to do to make sure that first piece holds, heh.
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xtremst80
Sep 14, 2007, 6:10 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I just realized, something that I had no idea about, but probably should: If you have a 3 point anchor system set up, pretty decent placement. So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold? Does anyone have any history on times it has held or has failed?
Wheres Majid???
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reg
Sep 14, 2007, 6:12 PM
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as i said in accidents i think fall factor would be real close to 2 - like 1.99999 cause as your falling each piece ripping reduces volicity ah bit wouldn't it? and a bomber anchor should hold a 2 but man that climber is falling 250'+-!!! that's ah WIP! i don't care where ur from! and i maintain:
"god help um"
p.s. - didn't dano do close to that in that setup fall where he cut the slings just enough for failure. i believe the rope was tied off rather then belayed by a person.
(This post was edited by reg on Sep 14, 2007, 6:15 PM)
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lemon_boy
Sep 14, 2007, 11:46 PM
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there are 3 cases that i can think of where this MIGHT have occurred. there are also a few incidents where single point anchors have catastrophically failed (ie Tom on Fat Cat at the creek in '95 or so, etc).
1) an accident involving 3 people at tres piedras, NM (maybe late 90's or so)
2) the accident at tahquitz or suicide involving 2 people, maybe early 2000's.
3) Monica and Tom from Denver died in a massive anchor failure accident in Yosemite in the late 90's r so. I think the leader fell with gear and anchor in a huge flake and the flake blew.
Good question. If you do any research and find anything else. let us know.
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majid_sabet
Sep 15, 2007, 12:32 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I just realized, something that I had no idea about, but probably should: If you have a 3 point anchor system set up, pretty decent placement. So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold? Does anyone have any history on times it has held or has failed?
This is old but its worth reading
http://www.bluebison.net/yosar/alive.htm
Also I cut this from a research document off UIAA
now the anchor bolts look ok but do you think this 2 point setup is rig correctly. ?
who runs the power point on gates?
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Sep 18, 2007, 6:06 AM)
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shockabuku
Sep 15, 2007, 12:34 AM
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lemon_boy wrote: there are 3 cases that i can think of where this MIGHT have occurred. there are also a few incidents where single point anchors have catastrophically failed (ie Tom on Fat Cat at the creek in '95 or so, etc). 1) an accident involving 3 people at tres piedras, NM (maybe late 90's or so) 2) the accident at tahquitz or suicide involving 2 people, maybe early 2000's. 3) Monica and Tom from Denver died in a massive anchor failure accident in Yosemite in the late 90's r so. I think the leader fell with gear and anchor in a huge flake and the flake blew. Good question. If you do any research and find anything else. let us know.
Unless it's another case, the NM accident was in the Sandias on Warpy Moople.
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scrapedape
Sep 15, 2007, 8:56 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I just realized, something that I had no idea about, but probably should: If you have a 3 point anchor system set up, pretty decent placement. So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold? Does anyone have any history on times it has held or has failed?
Does it really matter at that point? Is there anything different you are going to do?
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the_leech
Sep 15, 2007, 11:32 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold?
It will definitely hold on the 4th pitch. But once you get to the 7th or 8th pitch, that sucker's gonna pull right out.
That's why it's so dangerous to do climbs longer than six pitches.
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notapplicable
Sep 16, 2007, 12:55 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: , should you just hold tight, get prepared for the worst, and hope for the best, or should is there anything you can actually do?
Unfortunately you are going to have to do a little more than "hold tight" to catch a 200' factor 2 bomb. Its a bit of a catch22 realy, if you didnt tie a knot in the end of the rope your partner is dead and if you did you may both be dead.
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microbarn
Sep 16, 2007, 2:09 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: After the first piece fails, is there anything you can do to help make sure the second piece holds? Everything I've ever known consists of what to do to make sure that first piece holds, heh.
I think it was healyje that said it best. You should practice your stancing. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1620128#1620128
Everytime you belay place yourself so that you can hold the force yourself. Use the anchor as a backup to your body catching the fall.
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dingus
Sep 16, 2007, 3:49 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: Sounds like the answer is: flip a coin.
If it were as simple as a flip of the coin there would be fatalities at every rock climbing area every week till most of us quit or died. 50/50 ?
Nah. Probably more like 1/10000 or more.
DMT
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jt512
Sep 16, 2007, 6:18 PM
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dingus wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: Sounds like the answer is: flip a coin. If it were as simple as a flip of the coin there would be fatalities at every rock climbing area every week till most of us quit or died. 50/50 ? Nah. Probably more like 1/10000 or more. DMT
Actually, it's not really a probability question at all. It's more like any given anchor either will hold a factor-2 fall, or it won't.
Jay
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pumpout
Sep 18, 2007, 12:15 AM
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I don't think we know enough about this accident to find out what went wrong. Here's what we do know:
There were 3 pieces to the anchor - but what 3 pieces and how good were they? This is canadian rockies limestone we are talking about, not granite where bolted anchors are common on trad routes for a reason. Falling on these routes on gear is locally thought of as a really bad idea. The rock is soft, brittle, flaring and plain old abstract. Small gear is absolutely useless in this rock as it will rip out or shatter the rock.
Were the anchor pieces cams or pins? Its hard to say. All I can add is that Eldon/Palliser Limestone and "Bomber" anchor are rare in the same sentence.
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dingus
Sep 18, 2007, 2:06 AM
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jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: Sounds like the answer is: flip a coin. If it were as simple as a flip of the coin there would be fatalities at every rock climbing area every week till most of us quit or died. 50/50 ? Nah. Probably more like 1/10000 or more. DMT Actually, it's not really a probability question at all. It's more like any given anchor either will hold a factor-2 fall, or it won't. Jay
That's nice. Now try answering the OP. That's what I did.
op wrote: So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold?
A leader takes a fall 100 feet up a pitch and pieces start popping one by one till the anchor departs from the bosom of mother earth?
At LEAST 10,000 to 1 on any given day.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 18, 2007, 2:07 AM)
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jt512
Sep 18, 2007, 4:24 AM
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dingus wrote: jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: Sounds like the answer is: flip a coin. If it were as simple as a flip of the coin there would be fatalities at every rock climbing area every week till most of us quit or died. 50/50 ? Nah. Probably more like 1/10000 or more. DMT Actually, it's not really a probability question at all. It's more like any given anchor either will hold a factor-2 fall, or it won't. Jay That's nice. Now try answering the OP. That's what I did. op wrote: So you're on the 4th pitch or so and your partner is leading and is about 100' up. They fall and their pieces start popping out one by one. What are the chances that your anchor will hold? A leader takes a fall 100 feet up a pitch and pieces start popping one by one till the anchor departs from the bosom of mother earth? At LEAST 10,000 to 1 on any given day. DMT
You might have thought you answered the OP's question, but if you did, your answer was wrong. Mine, on the other hand was actually helpful to those not too intellectually lazy to think about it. Whether your anchor will hold a factor-2 fall is not a probability question. If you build your anchor well, it will absolutely hold, and if you don't, it absolutely won't. If you consider your anchors subject to the laws of probability, please don't climb with me.
Jay
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