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Jugging Back up
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sjderis


Sep 17, 2007, 7:40 AM
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Jugging Back up
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The dumb question is the one not asked so here goes...Try not to fry me too hard...
I am practicing jugging for my Washington Column experience next month and I have been working with different solutions for back up...
I have the bight on a line back up with the runner to my harness connected with a carabiner...This is slow and slightly off balance...
I have tried a prusik on the rope backed up to my harness as well
Are there any good/easier ways to make sure I dont disconnect completely should I somehow by an act of god lose both ascenders? Not a reality but hindsight is 20/20
Thanks guys!


russwalling


Sep 17, 2007, 7:59 AM
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Re: [sjderis] Jugging Back up [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I have the bight on a line back up with the runner to my harness connected with a carabiner

Not sure what this means, but, if you are saying you are tying a knot in the jug line and clipping it to your harness every now and again, you are doing it right. If there is nothing to hit, tie off maybe once on the pitch... if there are obstacles below you, tie off more frequently. I've seen guys trail a grigri below them as they jug, but it looked clusterfukky and slow and hassle prone to me. Too much safety will get you killed.


sjderis


Sep 17, 2007, 8:50 AM
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Thats exactly what I do...I agree that my gri gri hanging with two aiders and rope will get tangled ... I got into that already and chose to avoid...I usually girth hitch to my harness and tye off with a bit of rope to the lead line...Seems to work although its sort of slow to have to disconnect and move, just looking for the most efficient way...Wink


pmyche


Sep 17, 2007, 9:56 AM
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whiskeykid


Sep 19, 2007, 10:11 AM
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I ALWAYS jug with my gri-gri on, clipped to my belay loop. The only clusterf**ky thing about it is that for the first 10-15 feet the rope below you doesn't weigh enough to feed through the gri-gri by itself, so you have to stop once or twice and pull the slack through, which I'm certain takes less time than stopping and re-tying a backup knot. After the first 15 feet though, you don't even know it's there. If (for whatever reason) you do have both ascenders come off, I'd much rather take a fall on a gri-gri than a backup knot that could possibly be 30 feet below me. Having a gri-gri on also makes following a pendulum a breeze!


vegastradguy


Sep 19, 2007, 10:33 AM
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clip a big locker (Petzl William is nice, or OP Jake, etc, etc) to your belay loop. clip a fig-8 on a bight to it once or twice a pitch. ditch the runner.


pmyche


Sep 19, 2007, 11:54 AM
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areuinclimber


Sep 20, 2007, 11:47 AM
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if your jugging a straight up pitch it has been my experience that unless retarded or something of higher power wants you dead your jugs arent uncliping from the cord, i tie a eight-ona-bite directly to a locking biner on my harness belay loop (a fan of steel myself) right off the anchor and thats all i'll tie. if the pitch is traversing or otherwise logistically challenging i will use top jug and then gri-gri, and have managed to clean every penji safely that i have ever come across using that method without leaving biners, only hero loops or the funnest way on small penji's, cutting the lower out tat and taking the ride. Crazy


clintcummins


Sep 20, 2007, 12:31 PM
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Ditto what Russ, vegastradguy and others said - big locking biner directly on your belay loop.

sjderis wrote:
I have the bight on a line back up with the runner to my harness connected with a carabiner...This is slow and slightly off balance...
Don't use a runner. This will dangle the knots too low, where you may step on them or into the sling while jugging.

sjderis wrote:
I have tried a prusik on the rope backed up to my harness as well
Probably valueless, because if you get a ways above the prusik and then fall onto it, it can easily melt through. But if you advance the prusik with you, that's slow.

sjderis wrote:
Are there any good/easier ways to make sure I dont disconnect completely should I somehow by an act of god lose both ascenders?
Backup knots are simplest, so probably best. The key is to figure out when / how often to tie them. Clearly, one to start with. Maybe 3-4 total on the pitch, since more are hard to fit onto one biner, but you can add another biner if needed, or untie/drop lower knots to make room if you need one close by. The basic rule is to have a backup knot close if you are going to take one of your ascenders off the rope. (Close enough to keep you from hitting something below if the other ascender comes off the rope, or if you become detached from it somehow).

Cleaning the Kor Roof can be quite awkward. Here you do not want the backup knot to be too high, or it will interfere with getting slack to move past the biner/piece you are about to clean. Fortunately there is not much to hit close by, so it's fine to have the backup knot low. It would probably be worth practicing cleaning a (rightwards) traverse on ascenders for this, if you can set it up. Then you will get a feel for moving onto the upper ascender and off of the lower.


nthusiastj


Sep 20, 2007, 12:34 PM
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Re: [whiskeykid] Jugging Back up [In reply to]
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whiskeykid wrote:
I ALWAYS jug with my gri-gri on, clipped to my belay loop. The only clusterf**ky thing about it is that for the first 10-15 feet the rope below you doesn't weigh enough to feed through the gri-gri by itself, so you have to stop once or twice and pull the slack through, which I'm certain takes less time than stopping and re-tying a backup knot. After the first 15 feet though, you don't even know it's there. If (for whatever reason) you do have both ascenders come off, I'd much rather take a fall on a gri-gri than a backup knot that could possibly be 30 feet below me. Having a gri-gri on also makes following a pendulum a breeze!

Ditto.


bkalaska


Sep 20, 2007, 12:52 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
clip a big locker (Petzl William is nice, or OP Jake, etc, etc) to your belay loop. clip a fig-8 on a bight to it once or twice a pitch. ditch the runner.

Agreed. You can also clip a biner through the holes at the top of your ascenders to prevent the rope from coming completely off. That way you are really just worried about both failing to bite the rope simultaneously. For that highly unlikely scenario a few figure 8's on a locker over the course of the pitch should take care of you. Also be sure to be tied into the rope at the start in case you cross load the biner on top of everything else failing.


shimanilami


Sep 20, 2007, 12:55 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
clip a big locker (Petzl William is nice, or OP Jake, etc, etc) to your belay loop. clip a fig-8 on a bight to it once or twice a pitch. ditch the runner.

Ditto.


skiclimb


Sep 28, 2007, 11:53 PM
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Re: [sjderis] Jugging Back up [In reply to]
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I dont back up my petzls.. 2 petzls on a rope is fine with me.

but i am smooth with my ascending technique... sometimes tie in if have to pass gear.

however that said.. can't recommend to anyone cause if you die friom my advice and I hear about it..i'll have to drink even more beer.

nvm ..go ahead


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 28, 2007, 11:54 PM)


grippedclimber


Oct 2, 2007, 5:01 PM
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I pretty much always use a gri-gri back up and find it much faster then stopping to tie knots. On a big traverse however, I'll tie knots as well as use the gri-gri. I have had both Petzl jumars blow off the rope on two seprate oocasions. Sure, on a straight up pitch no or little back up is fine but start going side ways and... 'smooth technique' aside, I have jugged plenty of line and still, on a big traverse those little cams will blow. I busted out a tooth and shredded my elbows blowing both my jumars. I landed on a back up knot after 30 feet or so.

The Gri rocks for lower outs and also provides a solid back up as long as your biner holding you gri is not cross loaded(use tape or steel or DMM) and like someone said after 15 feet you dont even know its there.

So for straight up b-line just go and tie a bite of rope off once per pitch or so, No need for a figure-8 just tie overhand, and for traverse back your shiat up with gri and knots!!!

The Gri is such a sweet tool. It requires some attention and proper use like everything else but what a nice invention! I pretty much always carry one, one time I didn't and I lost my front tooth, if I had my gri...wouldn't of happened (I left it in the truck).


sjderis


Oct 8, 2007, 11:08 AM
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Thanks everyone for your imput - Its nice to have the extra information - Doing my first aid climb and appreciate the wisdom...Leaving tommorow


salamanizer


Oct 9, 2007, 7:58 AM
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skiclimb wrote:
I dont back up my petzls.. 2 petzls on a rope is fine with me.


This is extreemly poor advice. Several very capable climbers have died this way. I believe someone last year just died (slid off end of rope) because of no back up. It's a very dangerous habbit.


dingus


Oct 9, 2007, 8:34 AM
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salamanizer wrote:
skiclimb wrote:
I dont back up my petzls.. 2 petzls on a rope is fine with me.


This is extreemly poor advice. Several very capable climbers have died this way. I believe someone last year just died (slid off end of rope) because of no back up. It's a very dangerous habbit.

Climbing is a very dangerous habit. With fixed ropes often backup knots just aren't possible. You either devise another backup strategy or you do without.

Mini-traxion works well as a backup for fixed ropes imo. So too does some form of prussik knot.

But for first walls I'd reckon the knot tying crew is spot on. Do that (so long as the bottom end of the rope isn't fixed that is, actually saw someone do that once... he didn't get vyer far.)

DMT


skiclimb


Oct 10, 2007, 12:37 AM
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salamanizer wrote:
skiclimb wrote:
I dont back up my petzls.. 2 petzls on a rope is fine with me.


This is extreemly poor advice. Several very capable climbers have died this way. I believe someone last year just died (slid off end of rope) because of no back up. It's a very dangerous habbit.

I agree .. if you take my advice and die i'll feel somewhat guilty and have to drink more beer.

lose/win situation i guess.


climbingaggie03


Oct 19, 2007, 6:36 PM
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I don't know how attached you are to the 2 jug system, but I like jugging with a left jug and a gri-gri. I stand on my jug, and pull slack through my gri-gri as I stand up, it's smooth and pretty efficient. If I feel insecure, I'll tie a back up knot or two. I like it cause I always have my gri gri on the rope and ready to catch me if my jug blows for some reason, it also does help for lower outs ect.


coastal_climber


Oct 21, 2007, 7:52 AM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
I don't know how attached you are to the 2 jug system, but I like jugging with a left jug and a gri-gri. I stand on my jug, and pull slack through my gri-gri as I stand up, it's smooth and pretty efficient. If I feel insecure, I'll tie a back up knot or two. I like it cause I always have my gri gri on the rope and ready to catch me if my jug blows for some reason, it also does help for lower outs ect.

I believe that's called the leap-frog system.

>Cam


climbingaggie03


Oct 22, 2007, 6:47 PM
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It is called that sometimes, I prefer to call it the crazy homemade yo-yo system Smile


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