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dingus
Sep 23, 2007, 4:50 PM
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bachar wrote: Trad is on-sight, ground up (free, aid or mixed).....
S'what I done been telling you people for a long time.
For your viewing pleasure and historical perspective (if by historical I mean people who in their 50s and early 60s can free solo circles around us roped up gums)
http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=454289&tn=0
Trad. Its not just a rack of widgets.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 23, 2007, 4:53 PM)
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 24, 2007, 2:14 PM
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So, can you not redpoint a trad route? Is redpointing purely in the realm of the sport climber? Hey, I tried to onsight last year, wasn't strong enough. Got it clean this year. Was I not trad climbing? I'm so confused.
Josh
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dingus
Sep 24, 2007, 2:38 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: So, can you not redpoint a trad route? Is redpointing purely in the realm of the sport climber? Hey, I tried to onsight last year, wasn't strong enough. Got it clean this year. Was I not trad climbing? I'm so confused. Josh
Redpoint is a sport climbing term invented by Kurt Albert. What.... mid-80s or so? You know, the ole red dot at the base of the route thing (those whacky Germans!). Wolfy and others brought that concept to America though hang-dogging-to-victory certainly had been practiced for a long time before that.
It just wasn't respected.
Anyway, its not meant as a pissing match. I took all the pissing match words out of the OP. Its meant as a frame of reference. An awful lot of folks are ignorant when it comes to this topic.
Cheers
DMT
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olderic
Sep 24, 2007, 2:46 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: So, can you not redpoint a trad route? Josh
Actually Josh by the strictist rules - no you can't. You get one chance to do a route. After that it is tainted. One of the strongest climbvers of the 70's Jim Erickson from CO - always played by those rules and did some incredible stuff - although he relaxed his standards when he was working to free the NW face of Half Dome. Most of us weren't quite that strict. If you sent a route that you had previously failed on you prided yourself as to "have gotten better" - it's human nature. But had you really gotten any better or just acquired some crucial knowledge? If you take climbing back to it's routes the goal was to get to the top of something and if the somethng was big then time was usually of the essence and there was not time for repeated attemtps. Now days of course climbing has split into many styles and most participants spout the new age mumble jumble about the journey being the core and the destination as not the goal - blah blah blah. Still the idea of on-sight still gets some recognition.
It's pretty well documented where the term "red point" came from - it certainly was not from what you kids all like to call "trad" climbing now.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 24, 2007, 3:17 PM
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I like when I get called a kid. I have all kinds of respect for the roots of climbing and agree that onsighting is the best possible way to send a climb. BUt... I am very happy when I can send something that previously shut me down. Is that a redpoint? I don't really care, but putting it in my book as one is easier than writing "a climb that I previously tried to onsight, but couldn't, but now I have sent."
As far as sending a climbing being attributed to being stronger or having newly gained knowledge of the climb, it could be either or a little of both.
I think arguing about labels and terms is a little silly. I know a little about climbing history, and I realize that some of the terms I use and are commonly used today are not necessarily the way they were intended or were used back in the day. OK, I get it. But, I don't think that "redpointing" a climb "taints" it. It is just a step down in style. How big that step is, is up for debate.
Josh
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 24, 2007, 3:26 PM
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Wait.... does it still count as tradding a route if i put it on my blog? What kind of cams do i need when the bolts are too far away?
There is this area in the gym where one of the quickdraws fell out, and I had to put it back in... can I put that as a 5.11a trad on the Black Route on my ascent log?
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microbarn
Sep 24, 2007, 3:28 PM
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dingus wrote: bachar wrote: Trad is on-sight, ground up (free, aid or mixed)..... S'what I done been telling you people for a long time. For your viewing pleasure and historical perspective (if by historical I mean people who in their 50s and early 60s can free solo circles around us roped up gums) http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=454289&tn=0 Trad. Its not just a rack of widgets. DMT
language evolves...deal with it.
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olderic
Sep 24, 2007, 4:21 PM
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microbarn wrote: [ language evolves...deal with it.
Of course it does - and to be conversant you should be knowledgable of current lingo. But to throw out other cliches - those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. In an Orwellian sense revisionist language leads to revisionist history.
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shockabuku
Sep 24, 2007, 5:12 PM
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olderic wrote: microbarn wrote: [ language evolves...deal with it. Of course it does - and to be conversant you should be knowledgable of current lingo. But to throw out other cliches - those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. In an Orwellian sense revisionist language leads to revisionist history.
History never repeats itself, it's just conveniently similar (or not).
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microbarn
Sep 24, 2007, 5:17 PM
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olderic wrote: microbarn wrote: [ language evolves...deal with it. Of course it does - and to be conversant you should be knowledgable of current lingo. But to throw out other cliches - those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. In an Orwellian sense revisionist language leads to revisionist history.
Good point, but dingus seems to create a thread or post on this exact same topic more than is pertinent.
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dingus
Sep 24, 2007, 5:21 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I think arguing about labels and terms is a little silly.
That's cool bro. Cheers to you!
DMT
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olderic
Sep 24, 2007, 5:22 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I like when I get called a kid. I have all kinds of respect for the roots of climbing and agree that onsighting is the best possible way to send a climb. BUt... I am very happy when I can send something that previously shut me down. Is that a redpoint? I don't really care, but putting it in my book as one is easier than writing "a climb that I previously tried to onsight, but couldn't, but now I have sent." As far as sending a climbing being attributed to being stronger or having newly gained knowledge of the climb, it could be either or a little of both. I think arguing about labels and terms is a little silly. I know a little about climbing history, and I realize that some of the terms I use and are commonly used today are not necessarily the way they were intended or were used back in the day. OK, I get it. But, I don't think that "redpointing" a climb "taints" it. It is just a step down in style. How big that step is, is up for debate. Josh
Oh I agree I think redpoint is a wonderful way to describe getting up something cleanly that you failed to in the past. It should transcend to many things in real life - "I finally redpointed the bar exam". "Beta" certainly has.
For me - not onsighting/flashing a route DOES taint it for me - the longer and more alpine like the route the more I am dissapointed in myself for not getting it cleanly the first time. But I "get" the idea of the gym and sport climbing and do enjoy working and eventually redpointing a route. But at this stage I seriously doubt it's because I got any "better". I just learned what it takes to do this particular thing and all the variables lined up right thi sone time.
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dingus
Sep 24, 2007, 5:22 PM
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microbarn wrote: olderic wrote: microbarn wrote: [ language evolves...deal with it. Of course it does - and to be conversant you should be knowledgable of current lingo. But to throw out other cliches - those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. In an Orwellian sense revisionist language leads to revisionist history. Good point, but dingus seems to create a thread or post on this exact same topic more than is pertinent.
Deal with it.
DMT
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olderic
Sep 24, 2007, 5:27 PM
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[quote "microbarnGood point, but dingus seems to create a thread or post on this exact same topic more than is pertinent.
DMT comments on just about ever topic with insightful (although prehaps not quite as profound as he would like to think) words of wisdome.
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microbarn
Sep 24, 2007, 5:32 PM
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olderic wrote: microbarn wrote: Good point, but dingus seems to create a thread or post on this exact same topic more than is pertinent. DMT comments on just about ever topic with insightful (although prehaps not quite as profound as he would like to think) words of wisdome.
Agreed, but that doesn't mean this topic is any less tired. Obviously the other times he ranted didn't bring the resolution he hopes. What will change this time?
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dingus
Sep 24, 2007, 5:32 PM
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olderic wrote: [quote "microbarnGood point, but dingus seems to create a thread or post on this exact same topic more than is pertinent.
DMT comments on just about ever topic with insightful (although prehaps not quite as profound as he would like to think) words of wisdome.
I love how people project their opinions of me, upon me.
haha.,
DMT
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dingus
Sep 24, 2007, 5:34 PM
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microbarn wrote: olderic wrote: microbarn wrote: Good point, but dingus seems to create a thread or post on this exact same topic more than is pertinent. DMT comments on just about ever topic with insightful (although prehaps not quite as profound as he would like to think) words of wisdome. Agreed, but that doesn't mean this topic is any less tired. Obviously the other times he ranted didn't bring the resolution he hopes. What will change this time?
Sometimes a troll is just a troll too. It doesn't matter if either of us can distinguish the two.
But chill dude. What I thought was actually pertinent in my OP were the words of bachar and the link to that thread. Do with it what you will!
Cheers and peace
DMT
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microbarn
Sep 24, 2007, 5:40 PM
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and here I thought you were going to be happy I was bumping your thread onto the front page....
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olderic
Sep 24, 2007, 5:43 PM
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dingus wrote: microbarn wrote: olderic wrote: microbarn wrote: Good point, but dingus seems to create a thread or post on this exact same topic more than is pertinent. DMT comments on just about ever topic with insightful (although prehaps not quite as profound as he would like to think) words of wisdome. Agreed, but that doesn't mean this topic is any less tired. Obviously the other times he ranted didn't bring the resolution he hopes. What will change this time? Sometimes a troll is just a troll too. It doesn't matter if either of us can distinguish the two. But chill dude. What I thought was actually pertinent in my OP were the words of bachar and the link to that thread. Do with it what you will! Cheers and peace DMT
OK - you got the quotes right this time - that's better. You know I agree with what you say 90%+ percent of the time. That still doesn't stop me thinking that that you are some what of an attention whore (note I preficed that staement with "I think" - so as not to confise things with projecting) - who craves a lot of stroking. I'm also am curious as to you real life given the incredible amount of time you spend on the various forums. I expect you will keep me guess though so I will just have to keep projecting.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 24, 2007, 5:59 PM
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olderic wrote: Oh I agree I think redpoint is a wonderful way to describe getting up something cleanly that you failed to in the past. It should transcend to many things in real life - "I finally redpointed the bar exam". "Beta" certainly has.
Agreed. I like the term, because it's easy for me to go back and look at climbs that i have done and know how I sent them.
In reply to: For me - not onsighting/flashing a route DOES taint it for me - the longer and more alpine like the route the more I am dissapointed in myself for not getting it cleanly the first time.
I guess I just have a problem with the word "taint". It is too absolute, like all of a sudden my experience is ruined becasue I fell. I guess I just don't see it that way.
In reply to: But I "get" the idea of the gym and sport climbing and do enjoy working and eventually redpointing a route. But at this stage I seriously doubt it's because I got any "better". I just learned what it takes to do this particular thing and all the variables lined up right thi sone time.
But...isn't learning moves to a particular climb part of "getting better". I only got a "C" in Exercise Physiology, but the terms muscle memory and specificity of training are important concepts in climbing and are part of "How we get Better."
Josh
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onceahardman
Sep 24, 2007, 6:23 PM
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i can remember when using chalk was considered "bad style", and old-timers considered it "aid". same with spring-loaded cams.
times change. terminology changes. style changes.
BUT-ethics should not change. if you tell someone that you on-sighted a climb, you should not be talking about a climb you actually redpointed.
best style? (to me) on sight free solo of a climb you have never seen before, and haven't read the guidebook description, and dont know how hard it is. (i've never actually done this.)
next? on sight free climb of the same route.
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 24, 2007, 7:59 PM
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There was a sweet route i saw one time, super fun looking. I want to sport it until i have it so i climb it safe than try for the trad red point.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos/Sport/Leah_Sandvoss_on_Wonderstuff_89811.html
10d finger and hand cracks are among the funnest size, magnified more so by the lack of gear needed! Time to make Five and Dime and Serenity the climbs they were meant to be!
If you don't know what Trad is, odds are, explaining it won't help. Kind of like Ice climbing. Pretty retardedly dangeroius, not by any means "fun", in the middle of Alaska in areas more known for oil spills and armageddon-esque earthquakes than good climbing, using weapons devised to kill trotsky to hack up a wall which in the glacial sense is about as permanent as a basket of mini muffins at a PTA meeting...
When is New Jack going to start cooling off...
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paintrain
Sep 24, 2007, 8:45 PM
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Nah. I wouldn't say it is a good definition. It is all the time frame you want to define "traditional"
Lots of old school "trad" lines that took numerous tries so it negates the requirement for "onsight". Unless all those lines don't count since they weren't onsighted.
Some folks put up bolted lines "ground up onsite". Does that qualify? Slab routes in these parts put up on lead with a hand drill.
Then it just degrades into semantics and tactics.
I vote rack of widgets.
PT
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 24, 2007, 8:46 PM
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: There was a sweet route i saw one time, super fun looking. I want to sport it until i have it so i climb it safe than try for the trad red point. http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos/Sport/Leah_Sandvoss_on_Wonderstuff_89811.html 10d finger and hand cracks are among the funnest size, magnified more so by the lack of gear needed! Time to make Five and Dime and Serenity the climbs they were meant to be! If you don't know what Trad is, odds are, explaining it won't help. Kind of like Ice climbing. Pretty retardedly dangeroius, not by any means "fun", in the middle of Alaska in areas more known for oil spills and armageddon-esque earthquakes than good climbing, using weapons devised to kill trotsky to hack up a wall which in the glacial sense is about as permanent as a basket of mini muffins at a PTA meeting... When is New Jack going to start cooling off...
Uhhhhh.....What?
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onceahardman
Sep 24, 2007, 10:33 PM
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dingus asked:
In reply to: What is traditional free climbing?
then quotes bachar:
In reply to: bachar wrote:Trad is on-sight, ground up (free, aid or mixed).....
traditional FREE climbing, then, is starting at the bottom, and free climbing to the top. if bolts are necessary, they are placed on lead. otherwise, protection is placed by the leader and removed by the second. even if you used pitons (traditionally speaking)
subsequent free ascents of bolted routes do not add more bolts, except as replacements for old crap bolts/hangers.
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