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socalbolter
Sep 28, 2007, 5:54 AM
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Most gyms around here (So Cal) use VB for problems easier than V0. They usually end up ranging from about 5.8 to 5.9+, with V0- handling easy to mid 5.10.
Not real sure what the “B” in VB stands for, but I’ve heard “Basic”, “Beginner”, and even “Boring” as in “Very Boring.”
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jt512
Sep 28, 2007, 5:58 AM
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socalbolter wrote: Most gyms around here (So Cal) use VB for problems easier than V0. They usually end up ranging from about 5.8 to 5.9+, with V0- handling easy to mid 5.10. Not real sure what the “B” in VB stands for, but I’ve heard “Basic”, “Beginner”, and even “Boring” as in “Very Boring.”
V-Babe; ie, a girlfriend route.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 28, 2007, 6:03 AM)
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jt512
Sep 28, 2007, 6:08 AM
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climbsomething wrote: I am affectionately known in my circles as The Queen of V0. And in all my reign I have "met" plenty of V0s that were in fact easier than 5.10. Sometimes route setters or guidebook authors call them VB or V0- but sometimes they just don't bother and go with V0. Some V0s are 5.10, and some are ladders. This is where the joy of discovery comes in.
Classic.
Jay
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shurafa
Sep 28, 2007, 7:53 AM
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Maybe this is best illustrated by example. I am going climbing with my girlfriend and three of her friends on Monday. Two of them have never climbed before and the other one has has come with us once before.
The last time we climbed it was up at Valhalla six weeks ago. Same day I tore my tendon grrr. She decided to boulder as it was cheaper and they did not have to learn how to belay. We looked for the easiest V0 in the gym and they took us over to a slab portion on the left side as soon as you come in. However the route was fairly technical and a little reachy and she was not able to get to the top (nor was another friend we brought with us). We told her to nor worry about the route and use any holds however the V0 holds tend to be the best holds anyways. Someone who is having problems getting to the top of a V0 is not gonna find any help by reaching for a V5 hold, heck most V2 holds are going to be no help. At home I stack holds as tightly as possible which is great for teaching new climbers using the rainbow route method. However for those of you who set routes professionally or at your local gym probably know that most gyms space out their routes so that they are evenly distributed across the gym.
But Hey "climbing is hard" someone mentioned earlier. Maybe climbing is not the sport for her. But wait I have the shiny 5.5 route you can try. Both of them made it to the top and one of them flashed the route. She then tried a 5.6 and flashed it as well. Finally she tried a 5.7 and made it most of the way up using open feet.
Please tell me why she is allowed to top rope but not boulder?
Climbing is a sport with a lot of tradition however the elitist attitude that bouldering has to be hard is false. And is SLOWLY changing given the fact that many gyms use alternate climbing scales. There is not reason for every gym not to have X6 routes that are = to 5.6 top rope routes.
Rachael is going to go again. We told her that the gym we are going to (The Rock Club in New Rochelle) has a few bouldering problems that she should be able to do. Last time I was there there were a number of V0- problems that were designed for new climbers.
To all the people that has posted in this thread. Please tell me why it is ok for new climbers to top rope but not boulder. Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.
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shurafa
Sep 28, 2007, 8:13 AM
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jt512 wrote: socalbolter wrote: Most gyms around here (So Cal) use VB for problems easier than V0. They usually end up ranging from about 5.8 to 5.9+, with V0- handling easy to mid 5.10. Not real sure what the “B” in VB stands for, but I’ve heard “Basic”, “Beginner”, and even “Boring” as in “Very Boring.” V-Babe; ie, a girlfriend route. Jay
This is a classic example of the stigma associated with climbing V0- or VB. Imagine if all the 5.5-5.9 routes in the gym were rated 5.B and were considered "babe" routes. Compound this with the fact that there are only allowed to be a token amount of the "newbie" routes. Its just not even imaginable since a large portion of the climbing population climb these grades. If any gym decided to implement this climbers would be up in arms. Here I am suggesting the reverse open up the 5.5-5.9 ie the X5-X9 routes in the bouldering section with a good amount of each grade and watch the influx of new climbers as life long top ropers give bouldering a serious go. In addition people like my friend Rachael, and Nicole, Hanna, Guy, Alejandro, Shannon, Erin, Danielle (to name a few) will be more likely to come back and have fun. And that is the bottom line. Its all about HAVING FUN.
Adding a scale below V0 that corresponds to 5.5-5.9 is good for the sport. There is no denying it. The more people that climb the better!
15 years ago most gyms did not even have a bouldering sections. Now almost every new gym has a good sized bouldering section. There are even a few bouldering only gyms. (I would be willing to stake my reputation on the fact that most bouldering gyms use some sort of supplemental scale. It is just a matter of economics at that point as there are no shiny 5.5 routes to top rope as a fallback) The sport is still in its embryotic stages. There is plenty of room for growth and this is one place where we will see plenty of it in the future.
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shurafa
Sep 28, 2007, 8:38 AM
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socalbolter wrote: Most gyms around here (So Cal) use VB for problems easier than V0. They usually end up ranging from about 5.8 to 5.9+, with V0- handling easy to mid 5.10. Not real sure what the “B” in VB stands for, but I’ve heard “Basic”, “Beginner”, and even “Boring” as in “Very Boring.”
Back to this quote as it illustrate a good point. I would have to agree that VB= Very Boring routes typically. As they are designed to be ladders for new climbers to get into bouldering on. However the scale is still to large. Even if VB encompases 5.5-5.9 that is a huge difference in difficulty.
This is where the X Scale really shines. There are only so many ways make a 5.5/X5 ladder which is what you want for introductory climbers. The grade is meant to be a guide so they have an idea of what may be fun for them. Add a few moves and change up the sequence and that 5.5 easily gets bumped to a 5.6/X6 or 5.7/X7 which is analogous to the Yosemite scale which is a good thing! Sure the X5 routes are going to be mostly ladders but I bet with a more definitive scale setters will have more freedom to set a "Sick" V0 or even an X9/5.9 (there are tons of really creative and interesting 5.10/5.9 routes.
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taydude
Sep 28, 2007, 11:31 AM
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shurafa wrote: Maybe this is best illustrated by example. I am going climbing with my girlfriend and three of her friends on Monday. Two of them have never climbed before and the other one has has come with us once before. The last time we climbed it was up at Valhalla six weeks ago. Same day I tore my tendon grrr. She decided to boulder as it was cheaper and they did not have to learn how to belay. We looked for the easiest V0 in the gym and they took us over to a slab portion on the left side as soon as you come in. However the route was fairly technical and a little reachy and she was not able to get to the top (nor was another friend we brought with us). We told her to nor worry about the route and use any holds however the V0 holds tend to be the best holds anyways. Someone who is having problems getting to the top of a V0 is not gonna find any help by reaching for a V5 hold, heck most V2 holds are going to be no help. At home I stack holds as tightly as possible which is great for teaching new climbers using the rainbow route method. However for those of you who set routes professionally or at your local gym probably know that most gyms space out their routes so that they are evenly distributed across the gym. But Hey "climbing is hard" someone mentioned earlier. Maybe climbing is not the sport for her. But wait I have the shiny 5.5 route you can try. Both of them made it to the top and one of them flashed the route. She then tried a 5.6 and flashed it as well. Finally she tried a 5.7 and made it most of the way up using open feet. Please tell me why she is allowed to top rope but not boulder? Climbing is a sport with a lot of tradition however the elitist attitude that bouldering has to be hard is false. And is SLOWLY changing given the fact that many gyms use alternate climbing scales. There is not reason for every gym not to have X6 routes that are = to 5.6 top rope routes. Rachael is going to go again. We told her that the gym we are going to (The Rock Club in New Rochelle) has a few bouldering problems that she should be able to do. Last time I was there there were a number of V0- problems that were designed for new climbers. To all the people that has posted in this thread. Please tell me why it is ok for new climbers to top rope but not boulder. Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.
ah damn I was thinking about New Rochelle for ABS regionals. Clearly I'm gonna have to head to PRG now cause their V0s are easier.
BTW how the hell can a V0 be reachy? by definition it is no longer a V0 if it's that hard. It's a V1-2 depending on how hard the reach is.
...or you're climbing wiht 3ft tall people.
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wax
Sep 28, 2007, 12:45 PM
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i would be all for this (as i am trying to get my girlfriend into bouldering) IF new climbers in the gym realized the safety rules associated with bouldering in a gym. i have been fallen on or damn near close to WAAAAAAAAY too many times because people will just start climbing on a problem without making sure nobody is around them.
other than that, i think better set VO's would be a great help to get people into bouldering, however it is my experience that they are typically gratuitous and don't really give new climbers any reason to boulder!
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lena_chita
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Sep 28, 2007, 2:52 PM
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shurafa wrote: To all the people that has posted in this thread. Please tell me why it is ok for new climbers to top rope but not boulder. Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.
Maybe b/c it is safer?
Since you are using personal anecdotes to illustrate your point, I'll throw in one of my own. A female friend of mine expressed interest in climbing about 2 years ago. She top-roped with me for several months and seemed to be getting better at it. I'd say she was climbing 5.7-5.8, maybe 5.9 with hanging. Then I introduced her to bouldering. Believe it or not, she WAS able to get up on a few boulder problems in the gym (and even finish them after working at it) even though she technically was not able to climb 5.10.
Unfortunately during her 5th or 6th time bouldering she fell (from about 1 ft high) twisted her knee, tore it and required surgery.
So I'd say, maybe it is GOOD that there aren't too many easy problems in a bouldering cave. Every time there is a birthday party, kids seem to have a good time rainbowing up the wall in top-rope areas. And in the bouldering cave they maybe grab two holds and jump down b/c it gets too hard -- GOOOD!!! I"d rather have them jumping down from 5 feet than from 14 feet, mats or not.
Overall--You are over-thinking this way too much...
Gyms set a certain percentage of easy routes b/c their customers need it-- and I guess depending on the customer base some gyms choose to set routes easier than others. But to come up with a special unified grading system for that? Puhleezzz!
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socalbolter
Sep 28, 2007, 2:54 PM
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Each gym could certainly invent their own rating system to address this if they wanted to, but why confuse the issue.
Just use the established ratings already in place.
If it's 5.5 - rate it 5.5.
5.7 = 5.7 and so on.
Once you get up to mid to hard 5.10 the traditional V-scale (V0 and above) can take over.
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gqsmooth
Sep 28, 2007, 4:48 PM
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op: Since you decided to dilute this board twice, here is my response from your double post.
shurafa wrote: This is a perennial problem I have faced in every single gym I have ever climbed in.
If you are climbing harder than V0 then how is it your problem, unless you have financial interest the gym owners not taking advantage of that extra revenue.
shurafa wrote: New climbers are attracted to bouldering because [there is] less of a learning curve...unless they are extremely athletic they.... are immediately shut down.
This is just as much a learning curve in bouldering as trad or sport or aid or ice. It was never about being more athletic in order to climb harder, it was about learning technique. More technique = harder climbs. There is a huge learning curve for technique in bouldering; tha V0 you are talking about (by your definition), has all the technicality of a whole 5.10 route compressed into a problem.
shurafa wrote: This is especially true of new female climbers as they often do not have the upper body strength to power through these moves.
The one thing that every climber (sport/trad/boudlering) told me was that it was never about upper body strength. Your arms are such a minor part of any climbing you do. The majority of world class climbers are there because of footwork and technique.
shurafa wrote: the V scale should be extended below the current V0 grade. The question is how to best go about doing this.
If you've been to alot of gyms you should see, like everyone that responded mentioned, that alot of gyms do grade below V0. Using VB; VE, E1+/-, and their variations.
shurafa wrote: Implementing these changes to the existing grading system would translate into more people climbing!
Why change what works? I'm sure there have been loads of people that wanted to change standards. Why doesn't the US go to Metric? It makes more sense than the current system. And why do you want more people to climb? More people, to me, just means more issues with access, accidents, higher rates for gyms because those gym owners see an opportunity for increased revenue (as demand increases supply decreases and prices rise).
shurafa wrote: However there is a large percentage of the population that climbs below 5.10 and therefore does not boulder by definition.
Be definition? So if you want to start grading below V0 aren't you "by definition" excluding these people from bouldering? I usually boulder V3 average but cant get past 5.10, does that "by definition" mean I only boulder V0?
shurafa wrote: Currently V0's vary in difficulty so widely that they are not a reliable measure of difficulty. This is true even within a given gym I have to climb every single V0 to make sure my friends will not get shut down on it.
Sounds like you just want to show them that you can do it, therefore they should? Make sure they don't get shut down. That's BS. Why not let them learn and grow on their own before you tell them they can't do it because you say it's too difficult.
If you are so hard up for new gyms and the sport to get huge, do your part by climbing and bringing people to the sport to decide for themselves what they want to take away. Don't shove your notions of what's to hard for them down their throats, in that you are taking away from climbing what I believe every climber aims to get out of the sport, a sense of self-accomplishment.
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gqsmooth
Sep 28, 2007, 4:57 PM
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WTF are you talking about V0/V5 holds? WTF is a V5 hold. Do they sell packs of those? REI special: SoIll's new line of V10 holds 199.99/20pcs. It's not the holds numbnuts, it's the way they are set. It's the type of problem, reachy, juggy, crimpy, overhanging. Just because I climb well on reachy gymnast style V3 probs does that mean I should be able to climb all V3. Hell no.
Try this the next time you take them, throw them on a wall, and not from a sit start, tell them to ignore the tape and use whatever holds they want. See if they can't get to the top that way. Then when they get used to moving along the wall they can gain technique and a little strength.
It's morons like you that teach people to be obsessed with grades from the get go and not enjoying climbing in of itself. I've met lots of people like you that won't attempt a harder grade by one or two because of that goddamn number. Jump on te fucking rock and crank. If you can't do it Come back to it.
No wonder they don't come back. Your "friends" go to the gym to have a good time and you are sitting there telling them they aren't even able to do the "easiest" problems in the gym. No wonder the turnaround rate for the "friends" you take is so high, if I went with you my first time, I'd prob have a shitty time. F*ck grades, the only reason I pay attention to them is to gauge whether I am getting stronger.
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gqsmooth
Sep 28, 2007, 5:08 PM
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One more thing that I saw that really ground my gears:
shurafa wrote: For some reason bouldering is not considered climbing. It is extremely elitist.
Again, WFT!? Who in the hell doesn't consider bouldering climbing? And how is it elitist? I have seen more people consistantly around a cave shouting encouragement to strangers on a hard or new problem than on the routes, belayers/climbing parters not withstanding. Outside at the crag, its different. I see you are the one being elitist by concentrating on what your beginners can't do.
Dude you have one hella screwed up view on the climbing community. Everyone (mostly) is cool and in one way straddles two or more disciplines of climbing. Ice climbers that boulder, boulderers that trad, trad that ice, sport that...well never mind, they are happy where they are. You get my point. You need to step back and reevaluate this thing. Are you climbing for grades? Sucks to be you then.
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konaboy
Sep 28, 2007, 5:09 PM
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Amen! I hope gqsmooth's post kills this terrible thread right here and now.
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cloudbreak
Sep 28, 2007, 5:29 PM
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shurafa wrote: But Hey "climbing is hard" someone mentioned earlier. Maybe climbing is not the sport for her. But wait I have the shiny 5.5 route you can try. Both of them made it to the top and one of them flashed the route. She then tried a 5.6 and flashed it as well. Finally she tried a 5.7 and made it most of the way up using open feet. Please tell me why she is allowed to top rope but not boulder? To all the people that has posted in this thread. Please tell me why it is ok for new climbers to top rope but not boulder. Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.
Maybe you should just prop a ladder up against the wall and give it nice comfy rating of your choice.
And, you think too much by the way.....
(This post was edited by cloudbreak on Sep 28, 2007, 5:30 PM)
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freezorburn
Sep 28, 2007, 5:53 PM
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You didn't get your answer on ROUTESETTER.com?
Taken strait from ROUTESETTER.com
http://www.routesetter.com/forum/1/topic-118/?recent=897
(This post was edited by freezorburn on Sep 28, 2007, 5:55 PM)
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gqsmooth
Sep 28, 2007, 5:57 PM
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burn. he already mentioned that he posted this on routesetter himself. i would much rather believe hes a moron.
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Gript
Sep 28, 2007, 6:24 PM
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shurafa wrote: Please tell me why she is allowed to top rope but not boulder? Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.
Isn't "bouldering" an extension of the sport for climbers who have already developed the basics of movement techniques?
I think it was Hague who said in his book 'The Self Coached Climber' that "Bouldering is quickly becoming king in American climbing. This phenomenon poses a problem for the less experienced in that it encourages spending excessive time working at or near your limit rather than learning movement skills and allowing them to develop."
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sidepull
Sep 28, 2007, 6:48 PM
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shurafa wrote: jt512 wrote: socalbolter wrote: Most gyms around here (So Cal) use VB for problems easier than V0. They usually end up ranging from about 5.8 to 5.9+, with V0- handling easy to mid 5.10. Not real sure what the “B” in VB stands for, but I’ve heard “Basic”, “Beginner”, and even “Boring” as in “Very Boring.” V-Babe; ie, a girlfriend route. Jay This is a classic example of the stigma associated with climbing V0- or VB. Imagine if all the 5.5-5.9 routes in the gym were rated 5.B and were considered "babe" routes. Compound this with the fact that there are only allowed to be a token amount of the "newbie" routes. Its just not even imaginable since a large portion of the climbing population climb these grades. If any gym decided to implement this climbers would be up in arms. Here I am suggesting the reverse open up the 5.5-5.9 ie the X5-X9 routes in the bouldering section with a good amount of each grade and watch the influx of new climbers as life long top ropers give bouldering a serious go. In addition people like my friend Rachael, and Nicole, Hanna, Guy, Alejandro, Shannon, Erin, Danielle (to name a few) will be more likely to come back and have fun. And that is the bottom line. Its all about HAVING FUN. Adding a scale below V0 that corresponds to 5.5-5.9 is good for the sport. There is no denying it. The more people that climb the better!
please. you're just getting ridiculous. most sports require some level of proficiency before you "get into the game." your concern for the fragile psyche's of people cursed with having to climb VB reeks of coddling, entitlement, and lowest-common-denominator thinking. Honestly, how long does it take to learn to climb a V0? If you're willing to try a bit, maybe a couple of weeks. Moreover, how psychologically traumatic is it to climb VB? Most people feel such a feeling of success and they're so naive about grades that none of the issues you bring up really matter. Inventing new grades, new scales, etc., really makes very little sense. I'm sorry if this seems harsh but its because your posts seem really whiny to me.
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MikeSaint
Sep 28, 2007, 7:09 PM
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To me it would it seem that if someone is to lazy to learn how to belay, and to cheap to learn how then: they probably wont go to far in any area of climbing.
Whats wrong with people busting their ass until they get the problem successfully?
I've read stories here, and met many folks who have worked on a problem for days or weeks until they were able to do it clean. When completed they are ecstatic you see it radiate from their being.
Commitment helped them complete it.
A new system was not needed.
(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Sep 28, 2007, 7:11 PM)
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rudolphluciani
Sep 28, 2007, 7:29 PM
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My gym is all bouldering and has a whole bunch of routes marked "BEGINER". Seems to work fine. to the OP, you're giving this WAY too much thought. The last thing we need are more damn numbers.
(This post was edited by rudolphluciani on Sep 28, 2007, 7:30 PM)
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bucknasty
Sep 28, 2007, 7:59 PM
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Usually beginners don't know what the tape on the wall is for, so they just climb around, at least that's what I've noticed in gyms I frequent. If someone told me to climb the routes the first few times I was in a gym, i would have probably been more discouraged, but I just climbed around on the walls and tried to get to the top for a while before I started even looking at routes (it took me 2-3 weeks before I could do a V0). If you're taking someone new to climbing into a gym, let them just climb around and have fun, instead telling them that they HAVE to climb the routes or whatever. It's like any sport, you don't throw everything at a new participant at once, you have to get them interested and having fun.
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cracklover
Sep 28, 2007, 8:37 PM
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socalbolter wrote: Just use the established ratings already in place. If it's 5.5 - rate it 5.5. 5.7 = 5.7 and so on. Once you get up to mid to hard 5.10 the traditional V-scale (V0 and above) can take over.
There you go. That's your answer. It couldn't be easier.
GO
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sdkbcassidy
Sep 28, 2007, 10:24 PM
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8flood8 wrote: if its too hard then use some of the other holds with different colored tape on it, until you can make the move that is spitting you off. cmon now... don't tell me you are getting shut down by a little piece of tape...
The bouldering police get you for that. You also cannot, under any circumstances, do a single move on a route graded 5.X without being tied into a rope - not even if you just do the moves up to the bouldering height limit. It just isn't done.
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