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danep
Oct 4, 2007, 7:47 PM
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I was reading an earlier thread on bail ethics that got me thinking: it seems like everyone agrees that rappelling off of a single bolt (a la the Texas Rope Trick) is a bad idea, since you're basically trusting that one bolt with your life. The thing is I don't really see how this is any different from just getting lowered off of a quicklink (or a quickdraw, if necessary) which seems to be the most popular method. Either way, as soon as you start cleaning the rest of your protection on the way down you're entrusting your life to that one bolt. Am I missing something here? In your opinion what's the "best" way to bail (assuming downclimbing isn't an option)?
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j_ung
Oct 4, 2007, 7:54 PM
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Probably the safest way to do it is to stay on belay and use a separate rope to rappel. If the route's very steep, then two bail 'biners on two separate bolts may be a better option. Not that I do those. I slap a bail 'biner on my high point and lower off.
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coastal_climber
Oct 4, 2007, 7:59 PM
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I've seen and used one where you girth hitch, or tie, a loop of webbing through the hanger, put the bail biner on it and lower off. This can be done using one, or two hangers, whatever you do. The good thing about this is that the next person to climb the route can still easily clip the hanger with a quickdraw. >Cam
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caughtinside
Oct 4, 2007, 8:29 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: I've seen and used one where you girth hitch, or tie, a loop of webbing through the hanger, put the bail biner on it and lower off. This can be done using one, or two hangers, whatever you do. The good thing about this is that the next person to climb the route can still easily clip the hanger with a quickdraw. >Cam That is silly and unnecessary. You don't need webbing if you're going to use a biner anyway, webbing is only helpful if you're going to do the texas rope trick. It does not add any redundancy. It is plenty easy to clip a draw to a bolt with one biner already on it. But I am with j_ung. I don't have any problem lowering off one biner on a single bolt, so long as the bolt looks ok visually. If you are lowering, you're not putting much force on it.
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yokese
Oct 4, 2007, 8:46 PM
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danep wrote: The thing is I don't really see how this is any different from just getting lowered off of a quicklink (or a quickdraw, if necessary) which seems to be the most popular method. Actually, being lowered puts almost twice as much load on the bolt than rappelling. And you're right, once you remove your lower protections, you're entrusting your life to that one bolt in either case.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 4, 2007, 9:21 PM
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Slap a bail bier on it and go home!! unless itsa lousy 1/4in buttohead with a leaper hanger its going to be just fine. Sould change the thread to what was your most sketch bailoff semi lowered/downclimbed off a #2 micro stopper once
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majid_sabet
Oct 4, 2007, 10:23 PM
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yokese wrote: danep wrote: The thing is I don't really see how this is any different from just getting lowered off of a quicklink (or a quickdraw, if necessary) which seems to be the most popular method. Actually, being lowered puts almost twice as much load on the bolt than rappelling. And you're right, once you remove your lower protections, you're entrusting your life to that one bolt in either case. Sorry for been a n00b but can you explain this to me on how you came up with this statement ? What are the facts and reasons behind it ?
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danep
Oct 4, 2007, 10:30 PM
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Think about it- if you are on belay, both you and your belayer are effectively "hanging" from the bolt, as opposed to rappelling, when it only has to hold your weight. At least that's my take on it. (This coming from someone who had to repeat PHYS 101)
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majid_sabet
Oct 4, 2007, 10:59 PM
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danep wrote: Think about it- if you are on belay, both you and your belayer are effectively "hanging" from the bolt, as opposed to rappelling, when it only has to hold your weight. At least that's my take on it. (This coming from someone who had to repeat PHYS 101) and you want me to buy what you just said ?
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rocknice2
Oct 4, 2007, 11:07 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: danep wrote: Think about it- if you are on belay, both you and your belayer are effectively "hanging" from the bolt, as opposed to rappelling, when it only has to hold your weight. At least that's my take on it. (This coming from someone who had to repeat PHYS 101) and you want me to buy what you just said ? It's free on the net. The man is correct. Getting lowered = Two persons, one on each side of rope Rapping = One person on both sides of rope. Is it so hard to figure out without those red/green arrows?
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NSFW
Oct 4, 2007, 11:07 PM
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climbingaggie03
Oct 4, 2007, 11:22 PM
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I don't Have a problem bailing off of a single bolt as long as I'm rapping, but if it makes you nervous, clip the bolt below your high point too then you have two points, it's not equalized, but it is redundant.
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majid_sabet
Oct 4, 2007, 11:40 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: danep wrote: Think about it- if you are on belay, both you and your belayer are effectively "hanging" from the bolt, as opposed to rappelling, when it only has to hold your weight. At least that's my take on it. (This coming from someone who had to repeat PHYS 101) and you want me to buy what you just said ? It's free on the net. The man is correct. Getting lowered = Two persons, one on each side of ropeRapping = One person on both sides of rope. Is it so hard to figure out without those red/green arrows? You can have 1 bolt and lower someone off that bolt directly without attaching anything to yourself while sitting on some nice fat ledge. So the OP concern only applies to situation where you are directly hanging off the face of a rock with one bolt (very rare unless the other bolts were damages ,removed or missing)and not just necessarily all the bolts .
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Oct 4, 2007, 11:41 PM)
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NSFW
Oct 5, 2007, 12:08 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: rocknice2 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: danep wrote: Think about it- if you are on belay, both you and your belayer are effectively "hanging" from the bolt, as opposed to rappelling, when it only has to hold your weight. At least that's my take on it. (This coming from someone who had to repeat PHYS 101) and you want me to buy what you just said ? It's free on the net. The man is correct. Getting lowered = Two persons, one on each side of ropeRapping = One person on both sides of rope. Is it so hard to figure out without those red/green arrows? You can have 1 bolt and lower someone off that bolt directly without attaching anything to yourself while sitting on some nice fat ledge. So the OP concern only applies to situation where you are directly hanging off the face of a rock with one bolt (very rare unless the other bolts were damages ,removed or missing)and not just necessarily all the bolts . I can't understand your post, so I'm going to interpret it as claiming that the belay stance has an affect on how much weight is applied on the anchors when lowering. For the most part, no.
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yokese
Oct 5, 2007, 12:15 AM
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Majid, no big surprise you don't understand it. You don't understand the zipper effect nor the simul rappelling either, why should we expect you to understand how people bail from a bolted route? I suggest you to keep on playing with your drawing program and stay far from the crags. On the bright side, your english seems to be improving, so your posting on RC might not be completely useless.
(This post was edited by yokese on Oct 5, 2007, 12:21 AM)
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AustinWilliams
Oct 5, 2007, 12:26 AM
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I think you meant bail safety. If you're sketched about a bolt just find a place for a nut and bail off that. Austin
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stymingersfink
Oct 5, 2007, 12:46 AM
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AustinWilliams wrote: I think you meant bail safety. If you're sketched about a bolt just find a place for a nut and bail off that. Austin are you kidding? he's sketched and bailing, thereby proving that he has no nuts! WTF, dood? besides, if a climb is protectable by clean gear, WTF is it doing being bolted? oh yeah. Nevermind. This is the sport-tard forum afterall. Carry on.
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jakedatc
Oct 5, 2007, 1:08 AM
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No.. the real question is why would someone be carrying a set of nuts on a bolted sport route? I don't understand why people freak out about bailing off a single bolt when they are perfectly willing to take a winger onto one. Also.. if you are hanging on the bolt already then there is the same weight/force scenario as being lowered. DUHH i've bailed off biners, Glue in bolts.. hangered bolts.. it's all do-able as long as you think about what you're doing and assess the situation. Was rapping off the hanger a great idea.. no.. but it wasn't far and i rapped instead of lowered and pulled the rope carefully as to not shred the sheath.
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coastal_climber
Oct 5, 2007, 4:32 AM
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caughtinside wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I've seen and used one where you girth hitch, or tie, a loop of webbing through the hanger, put the bail biner on it and lower off. This can be done using one, or two hangers, whatever you do. The good thing about this is that the next person to climb the route can still easily clip the hanger with a quickdraw. >Cam That is silly and unnecessary. You don't need webbing if you're going to use a biner anyway, webbing is only helpful if you're going to do the texas rope trick. It does not add any redundancy. It is plenty easy to clip a draw to a bolt with one biner already on it. Thats what I've learned to do, and I don't see anything wrong with it. If you stick a quick link on and leave it, they usually seize up or rust, then they are really hard to get off. Just thinking about the next climber(s). >Cam
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caughtinside
Oct 5, 2007, 4:55 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: caughtinside wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I've seen and used one where you girth hitch, or tie, a loop of webbing through the hanger, put the bail biner on it and lower off. This can be done using one, or two hangers, whatever you do. The good thing about this is that the next person to climb the route can still easily clip the hanger with a quickdraw. >Cam That is silly and unnecessary. You don't need webbing if you're going to use a biner anyway, webbing is only helpful if you're going to do the texas rope trick. It does not add any redundancy. It is plenty easy to clip a draw to a bolt with one biner already on it. Thats what I've learned to do, and I don't see anything wrong with it. If you stick a quick link on and leave it, they usually seize up or rust, then they are really hard to get off. Just thinking about the next climber(s). >Cam Yeah, and what I'm saying is that the webbing is unnecessary. You should leave one biner that is easily cleaned by the next climber. You shouldn't leave an annoying quicklink, and there's no reason to leave webbing. A bail biner can be removed with the flick of a gate. The option you describe is more of a pain in the butt for the next guy.
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angry_nature_lover
Oct 5, 2007, 4:59 AM
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schafermc wrote this a few minutes ago, then it disapeared... "People like epicjames are the reason I hate bouldering. They are just ridiculous posers who give me goosebumbs they are so embarrassing to even see. I am so happy that I have never heard any one play music at a crag; if I ever did I think I might uncontrolably barf all over myself. I am not sure whether it infuriates me or makes me laugh when a boulderer calls someone a pussy for using a rope when all they have to worry about is a sprained ankle. Do me a favor and stick to skateboarding and the climbing gym." why do you delete posts here? who is the mod? why does the mod delete opinions.....who is big brother? to the mod...i have that persons reply saved on my gmail, and will post ad nauseum if you delete again..........
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majid_sabet
Oct 5, 2007, 5:08 AM
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yokese wrote: Majid, no big surprise you don't understand it. You don't understand the zipper effect nor the simul rappelling either, why should we expect you to understand how people bail from a bolted route? I suggest you to keep on playing with your drawing program and stay far from the crags. On the bright side, your english seems to be improving, so your posting on RC might not be completely useless. You right, I do not understand what you guys are up to till you noobees deck, then I could truly analyze your mistakes most likely written by your own partner in ENGLISH. Carry on dude, just carry on on what you are doing.
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